Re: [OPE] Fwd: How to read Capital

dogangoecmen@aol.com

 Paul,
this is very well explained and documented in the Marxist literature.
Commodity production is something that does not come into existence with capitalism.
With capitalism it becomes the dominating form of production as Engels pointed out.

Your example of Aristotle strikes me in the light of the debate we are having on dialectics.
Aristotle could see the difference between use-value and exchange-value above all because 
he was one of the greatest dialecticians: use-value (quality) and exchange-value (quantity) 
and their contradictory unity (totality).

Dogan

-----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung----- 
Von: Paul Cockshott <wpc@dcs.gla.ac.uk>
An: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
Verschickt: Sa., 5. Apr. 2008, 0:04
Thema: RE: [OPE] Fwd: How to read Capital

The point is that commodity production came thousands of years before 
capitalism.
Aristotle could write about it and point out the contradiction between use and 
exchange value.
This contradiction could not itself thus be the genesis of capitalism or 
capitalism would
have existed in ancient Greece.

Paul Cockshott
Dept of Computing Science
University of Glasgow
+44 141 330 1629
www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~wpc/reports/

-----Original Message-----
From: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu on behalf of dogangoecmen@aol.com
Sent: Fri 4/4/2008 1:02 PM
To: ope@lists.csuchico.edu
Subject: Re: [OPE] Fwd: How to read Capital

 All that I said was that all contradictions in capitalist society can be 
deduced from the contradiction between use-value and exchange-value.
My reference to the separation of labourers from their means of production was 
referring to the genesis of capitalism. It is the precondition of production of 
goods as commodity. Here I am entirely in line with Smith and Marx.

You opposed to that but up tu now I could not see any argument. That is all I 
can say. I have to stop here.

Dogan

-----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung----- 
Von: Paul Cockshott <wpc@dcs.gla.ac.uk>
An: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
Verschickt: Fr., 4. Apr. 2008, 13:17
Thema: RE: [OPE] Fwd: How to read Capital

Paul
"My view is that the social division of labour involves a situation where 
different people work for substantial periods on different tasks and become 
skilled in these: weavers, potters, carpenters etc as such it predates the 
separation of labour from the means of production."

Dogan
        This is usually described as technical division of labour rather than 
        social division labour.
Paul in reply
           In that case what is your social division of labour? The separation
           of the producers from the means of production is not a division
           of labour. The division of society into wage labourers and
           capitalists is not a social division of labour, since the point being
           a capitalist is not to labour yourself but get others to do it for 
you.
Paul
"A social division of labour can exist under multiple different relations
of prodution, some of which are commodity producing ones and some not."
       Dogan
        Fine, but we are talking about modern form of social division of labour.

Paul in reply
            Since when? We were originally talking about your dialectical 
derivation
            of capitalist social relations from the usevalue exchange value 
distinction.
            You went from that to say that commodity production implied the 
social
            division of labour and thus the separation of the producers from the
            means of production.

            When I say that this was not necessarily the case historically, you 
then
            say that you are talking about modern capitalist social division of 
labour.
            But this modern capitalist social division of labour was what you 
were 
            initially trying to infer from the commodity. This is what I mean by 

sleight
            of hand in dialectical argument, a conclusion is drawn that is not 
supported
            by the stated premises, but can only be supported by unstated 
premises.

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