Re: [OPE] Open problems in Marxist economics: Workers' savings

Well unfunded schemes are clearly not savings. Also bear in mind that what Dave asked was a theoretical
question about how one deals with national accounts, he was not tieing it to particular nations.
At present in the UK and US I dont think there is net worker's savings, - the whole personal sector
is running a financial deficit and that aggregates the working and other classes, I dont know about Germany
or France. I believe that there was net workers savings in the past in Japan, and I would not be
surprised if it existed today in China -- in part because of the poor development of the state
pension system. In addition, the age structure of the population will have an influence here.
________________________________________
From: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu [ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu] On Behalf Of paul bullock [paulbullock@ebms-ltd.co.uk]
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 11:19 PM
To: 'Outline on Political Economy mailing list'
Subject: Re: [OPE] Open problems in Marxist economics: Workers' savings

What if, in the richer states, ' the currently existing standard of life'
includes a 7 year period of retirement (say average 72 years old) that has
to be funded in advance? The workers don't become capitalists, they may rely
upon them in part, but most will rely on 'unfunded' schemes run by the
state, even companies.... But 'this model' seems to rest entirely on
'funded' pension schemes characteristic of the middle classes, and which
benefits from a privileged position, allowed to share in a portion of
imperialist super profits. One cannot go back from this position to try to
suggest that this changes/ reduces the rate of exploitation. On the contrary
it arises because the rate of exploitation is higher in the (consequently)
poorer countries. However I agree that indeed this privileged sector does
get a salary well above the mode, or even mean wage, because on the whole it
ensures that they support or are politically passive in the face of the
constant raising of the level of exploitation by imperialism including the
waging of open wars.

Paul Bl.

-----Original Message-----
From: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu [mailto:ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu]
On Behalf Of Paul Cockshott
Sent: 10 April 2010 07:18
To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list
Subject: Re: [OPE] Open problems in Marxist economics: Workers' savings

No, I dont mean that at all.

I mean that if workers as a class are carrying out net saving ( we are
dealing with net saving in the national accounts not personal saving )
then they are acquiring title to capital, backed ultimately by real
investment in this model since we are not taking into account state debt.
That means that the wage is greater than that required to reproduce labour
power at the currently existing standard of life.
The wage then includes part of the fund for capital accumulation. Either you
have to say that capital accumulation is not per se
part of the social surplus product, or else you have to say that when the
wage rises above the value of labour power, then it includes
part of the social surplus.
________________________________________
From: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu [ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu] On
Behalf Of paul bullock [paulbullock@ebms-ltd.co.uk]
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 12:05 AM
To: 'Outline on Political Economy mailing list'
Subject: Re: [OPE] Open problems in Marxist economics: Workers' savings

I think that is quite wrong. Are you saying that the capitalists are (1) so
accurate that they (2) can determine without any question the level of wages
to guarantee death at the moment of working incapacity? I grant that is
certain historical conditions eg South Africa before the end of Apartheid,
the government actually had a calculation on the minimum level of
foodstuffs to keep black workers going.... but even Marshall in his heyday (
I mean before he renounced the iron law) wouldn't have gone as far as you
seem to be going! It is a highly mechanical approach. You seem to want to
introduce a sort of deterministic theory. You leave no room for day to day
reality, or indeed all the subsequent pilfering that the workers are subject
to after wages are paid.

PBl.

-----Original Message-----
From: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu [mailto:ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu]
On Behalf Of Paul Cockshott
Sent: 09 April 2010 10:48
To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list
Subject: Re: [OPE] Open problems in Marxist economics: Workers' savings

I certainly dont want to deny the struggle over wages.
What I am saying is that if workers are saving then the wage must contain
part of the social surplus product
________________________________________
From: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu [ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu] On
Behalf Of paul bullock [paulbullock@ebms-ltd.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 11:31 PM
To: 'Outline on Political Economy mailing list'
Subject: Re: [OPE] Open problems in Marxist economics: Workers' savings

Dear Paul,

If workers are able to save out of V it is because this has become part, at
least for a while, of (an historically constituted part) the relation
between capital and labour, and labour is bettering its position. It is not
complicated. If they have so little they starve, so shortening all their
lives, then that can last as long as is practically possible for capital.
At every stage the class struggle is central in defining the material
relations of production.

You seem to be trying to deny the fact that there is a struggle, and that
this is a long term battle. If the workers receive the money from the
employer that is V. The capitalist HAD to pay it. The worker will struggle
to save because s/he knows that they bear all the 'risks' of capitalism.

If THEN, at the next stage of assessment, we bring the state into
consideration, as we must, a secondary battle takes place over the more
immediate conditions for reproducing labour power, (this is why the state
steps forward when capital is on the defensive). Tax reduces the real wage
of the workers, or takes the workers consumption under its own hand, or it
may also impinge on profits. This all depends on political battles. Why this
attempt to keep politics out of 'economics'? We cannot apply certain general
truths DIRECTLY to each set of circumstances. This is why class
consciousness is central to the use of Marx's general analysis, and
political debate essential and healthy.

Cheers

Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu [mailto:ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu]
On Behalf Of Paul Cockshott
Sent: 08 April 2010 15:23
To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list
Subject: Re: [OPE] Open problems in Marxist economics: Workers' savings

I agree with what you say below, which is why it is not clear that one can
count
workers savings as part of V.
________________________________________
From: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu [ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu] On
Behalf Of paul bullock [paulbullock@ebms-ltd.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 8:46 PM
To: 'Outline on Political Economy mailing list'
Subject: Re: [OPE] Open problems in Marxist economics: Workers' savings

Well I am sure that capital is happy to see workers depress their own
immediate standard of living in order, through fear of the capitalist
future, and yield to promises about the future. A 'title' is one thing,
future reality is another.. witness the Daily Mirror's pensions, and many
others. Corps will take what they can from 'overfunded' schemes, either
directly or through takeovers, and if they go bust? The whole thing is a
forced gamble for the worker, and doesn't contradict the basic fact that
they and the subsequent generation of workers pays for everything, and
struggle to keep back or take back enough to prolong their lives once their
daily working lives are ended, however circuitous the claims and
counterclaims.

PBl

-----Original Message-----
From: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu [mailto:ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu]
On Behalf Of Paul Cockshott
Sent: 07 April 2010 15:20
To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list
Subject: Re: [OPE] Open problems in Marxist economics: Workers' savings

The problem with this is that it compares different time periods.
If a 20 year old worker in China now has 10% of their income saved in the
form of some private pension scheme that channels it into real capital
accumulation, what they are getting is a title to a stream of future surplus
value in 2055. That future surplus value which may go to pay their pension
will have to be accounted for in the accounts of 2055, in the accounts of
2010 the workers savings are an accounting entry that balances part of gross
fixed capital formation and must count as C not V.

If we are talking about non-funded pension schemes such as are common in the
state sector where current employees pay the pensions of current pensioners,
then Paul B is right. But in this case is there really any saving going on?
Is it not just a transfer payment?
________________________________________
From: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu [ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu] On
Behalf Of paul bullock [paulbullock@ebms-ltd.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2010 11:24 AM
To: 'Outline on Political Economy mailing list'
Subject: Re: [OPE] Open problems in Marxist economics: Workers' savings

If workers earn and save it must, practically, be part of v. After all what
happens in old age? V has to represent the cost of reproduction of the
working class from birth to death. The state will ensure that this doesn't
get out of hand if temporarily capital loses its head; thus once workers are
retired they have to draw on savings to extend their lives further. The
extent of their lives is, as Jerry says, a function of the overall state of
accumulation and its political reflection.

PBl.

-----Original Message-----
From: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu [mailto:ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: 07 April 2010 01:03
To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list
Subject: Re: [OPE] Open problems in Marxist economics: Workers' savings

> Do workers' savings form a part of the total surplus value?

Hi Dave Z;

I would say 'no': they form a part of the total value of labor power.
Like the wage, the VLP has cultural and moral elements and should
not be (mis-) understood as simply equal to the minimum required
(regardless of time and space) for physical subsistence.

What exactly is the problem here from your perspective?

In solidarity, Jerry
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Received on Sun Apr 11 05:13:35 2010