Re Ian's [7078]: > I certainly was questioning whether a necessary condition of the existence > of surplus value (in an abstract form) is that commodity exchange is part > of the circuit of capital. I proposed a more abstract notion of surplus > value, which of course, is defined not by some stuff but by social > relations involved in exchanging commodities. OK, let's consider this question more. A. for the purpose of discussion, call a commodity (with a small "c") any good which is produced with the intent of being sold and thereby contains a (presumed) utility and a (presumed) exchange-value. Let us further specify, for the sake of discussion, that there is a surplus product being produced. B. commodity (note small "c") can be produced under a wide variety of historical circumstances. A list of some (but not all) of these circumstances include: l. commodity production by serfs (with or without the corvee system) for landlords; 2. commodity production (where there is commodity production) by slaves for the slave-owning class; 3. commodity production by members of feudal guilds; 4. commodity production by worker or peasant cooperatives. C. In all of the above circumstances (l-4), the only common 'social relation involved in exchanging commodities' is that there is a social relation _in the market_ between *buyer and seller*. Thus, from the standpoint of the buyer it makes no difference in terms of which circumstance the commodity was produced. This is of no concern to the buyer who is only concerned with the use-value (and, possibly, exchange-value of the commodity. From the standpoint of the seller, all that matters is that the potential buyer has enough money or other commodities to trade (since your most abstract definition doesn't *require* money for there to be commodity production) to buy the commodity output. D. I see *no* reason to say that under any of the above, anything more than the general transhistorical category of a surplus product has been produced. There is surplus production and there are markets and there is exchange-value but all of the above (l-4) represent *different* systems of social relations concerning the agents in the production process. Nor -- less significantly -- is there any one method for the determination of exchange-value for all of these circumstances -- thus, as we discussed previously, the feudal guilds could to a great extent simply 'set' the exchange ratio or money price of the commodity output produced by guild members in an arbitrary way. E. Let's fast forward to a period of time when the capitalist mode of production has become dominant. Assume that there are commodities produced under the circumstances described above (l-4) and there are Commodities (large "C") produced under conditions where there are capital/wage-labor social relations. We can all agree that the commodities which are produced under l-4 where they are of the same type (and thereby have the same presumed utility) and where they are sold on the same markets with Commodities of the same type, have a (presumed) exchange- value which tends to be equal to the exchange-value of the other Commodities. That is, the exchange-value for goods of the same type tend to be equal regardless of whether they are commodities or Commodities. Moreover, we would have reason to believe under most circumstances that the exchange-value of both commodities and Commodities will tend under conditions of generalized production and sale of Commodities to be determined by the conditions of Commodity production. Thus, for instance, the exchange-value of commodity 'x' produced by a workers' cooperative tends to be determined by the conditions of production in capitalist firms who produce 'X' (this would be the case, for instance, regardless of whether 'x' was sold as means of subsistence for workers or to capitalist firms as means of production.) And, of course, it may be that capitalist firms come to rely on commodities, for various historical reasons, for Commodity production. F. Now we return to the question at hand: although both commodities and Commodities have a use-value and an exchange-value and although the exchange-value tends to be identical for commodities and Commodities and although there is a surplus product assumed to be produced under all circumstances *if we are going to hold to the claim that value and surplus value represent specific social relations between capitalists and producers*, then *none* of the commodities produced would have *value* or *surplus value* -- even though (as we have already seen buyers tend to treat commodities and Commodities the same.) This is because the only social relation that l-4 have in common is a relation of exchange between buyer and seller. Yet, if we compare commodities to Commodities we see that there are *different* sets of *social relations of production* in l, 2, 3, 4, and where there is Commodity production. Thus, while it appears from the standpoint of the market that commodities = Commodities, it is precisely the *differences* in production relations which *distinguish* them (and yet, *to the eye* in the market make them *indistinguishable*) ... and it is the *specific production relations* that determine whether the surplus product takes the *particular form* of surplus value. In solidarity, Jerry
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