From: John Holloway (johnholloway@PRODIGY.NET.MX)
Date: Fri Jan 09 2004 - 21:00:22 EST
Paul and all,
Thanks for your explanations, but I still find the term 'oppressed
state' incomprehensible. If the state is a capitalist form of social
relations we can say that it is oppressive, but I don't think we can ever
say it is oppressed. It is a bit like talking of oppressed capitals. Of
course many individual capitals can be said to be 'oppressed' by the big
capitals, but surely it is a bit nonsensical to talk of oppressed capitals?
You seem to be identifying states with peoples or countries, but that is
to overlook completely that the state is a specific form of social
organisation (and a form antagonistic to the people it claims to represent).
I don't imagine you feel identified with the British state. If you lived in
Mexico, I don't imagine you would feel identified with the Mexican state, or
wherever.
But even if we talk of 'oppressed peoples or countries', that doesn't
make any sense to me either. Surely the inhabitants of the US are oppressed
too? Isn't oppression a global phenomenon?
I don't see how talk of 'oppressed states' or even 'oppressed peoples'
helps us to address the class antagonism, which is surely our common
starting point.
I am sure this has something to do with the issue of Venezuela.
John
----------
>From: Paul Bullock <paulbullock@EBMS-LTD.CO.UK>
>To: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU
>Subject: Re: [OPE-L] Labour aristocracy
>Date: Thu, Jan 8, 2004, 3:05 PM
>
>John,
>
>further to my previous response.. the use of 'oppressed state' is unusual...
>you are used to 'client state', 'occupied state', ' comprador state'.. and
>any other number of
>terms . 'Oppresed' is the traditional and correct term for 'oppressed
>peoples' or
>'nations' , but modern states often contain many 'nations' eg Iraq.
>... what term do we use for such a state .... or do you think it wrong to
>consider states
>ever falling under imperialist tutelage, of having some inate independence?
>
>Paul Bullock
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Holloway" <johnholloway@PRODIGY.NET.MX>
>To: <OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 2:36 PM
>Subject: Re: Labour aristocracy
>
>
>> Paul B. says:
>>
>> >IT IS TRUE THAT EVEN THE POOR IN THE US HAVE TENDED TO LIVE BETTER THAN
>THE
>> >MOST MISERABLE IN THE OPPRESSED STATES
>>
>> What on earth is an "oppressed state", as opposed to an "unoppressed
>> state"???
>>
>> Greetings to all,
>>
>> John
>> ----------
>> >From: Paul Bullock <paulbullock@EBMS-LTD.CO.UK>
>> >To: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU
>> >Subject: Re: [OPE-L] Labour aristocracy
>> >Date: Mon, Jan 5, 2004, 5:18 PM
>> >
>>
>> >SIMON,
>> >
>> >WHAT IS 'ACTUALLY UNCLEAR' IS THE POINT YOU WISH TO MAKE. THE OVERALL
>> >AVERAGE WAGE OF US WORKERS SAYS LITTLE ABOUT THE LABOUR ARISTOCRACY
>UNLESS
>> >YOU WISH TO IDENTIFIY ALL U.S. WORKERS WITH SUCH A SECTION, WHICH I DO
>NOT.
>> >IT IS TRUE THAT EVEN THE POOR IN THE US HAVE TENDED TO LIVE BETTER THAN
>THE
>> >MOST MISERABLE IN THE OPPRESSED STATES, BUT THIS IS NOT SUFFICIENT TO
>CLASS
>> >THE US POOR AS LABOUR ARISTICRATS! YOUR '18 CENTS' WORTH IS THEREFORE NOT
>OF
>> >ANY MERIT IN THIS DISCUSSION UNLESS YOU ARE POINTING TO THE STATISTICAL
>FACT
>> >THAT AS SOME GET RICHER, OTHERS GET POORER, AND SO YOURSELF LEAVE THE
>> >QUESTION OPEN.
>> >
>> >WHENYOU MOVE TO NON PRODUCTION WORKERS YOU ABANDON SKILLED, HIGHER PAID,
>> >PRODUCTION WORKERS, AND INCLUDE LOW PAID SERVICE WORKERS . WHY?
>> >
>> >THE AIM OF 'PROGRESSIVE' ( SUBJECTIVELY) CAPITALISTS, IS TO MAKE THE
>WORKERS
>> >BELIEVE THAT THERE IS NO ANTAGONISM BETWEEN LABOUR AND CAPITAL , AND AS
>> >MANY HAVE POINTED OUT THEY ARE PREPARED TO SPEND A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF
>MONEY
>> >( EG 'by giving office employees and skilled workers a share of the
>> >profits'... KRUPSKAYA ) IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE THEIR AIM.
>> >
>> >Paul Bullock
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Simon Mohun" <s.mohun@QMUL.AC.UK>
>> >To: <OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU>
>> >Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:14 PM
>> >Subject: Labour aristocracy
>> >
>> >
>> >> >Paul B wrote:
>> >> >What is actually clear is that relatively few producers/corporations
>in
>> >the
>> >> >world, lets say 300, headquartered in very few states lets say 10, but
>> >> >mostly in the US, have a monopoly ( in the sensible sense of over 25%
>of
>> >the
>> >> >market ( UK Competition regs)), and that this 'monopoly' allows huge
>> >profits
>> >> >which are in part are used to provide payments to sections of the work
>> >force
>> >> >to ensure loyalty and stability to the system.
>> >>
>> >> I don't think this is actually clear. What sections of the work force
>are
>> >> being referred to? My computations for the US, using BLS statistics for
>> >> hourly wage rates of production workers in all sectors of the economy
>(83
>> >> per cent of employed workers), making very rough adjustments for direct
>> >> taxes, social security contributions and receipt of state cash
>benefits,
>> >> and deflating by the NDP deflator, seem to show that
>> >>
>> >> in 1978, real hourly product wages were 11.79 and by 2000 had risen to
>> >11.97.
>> >>
>> >> A total of 18 cents of a 1996 dollar over 22 years doesn't seem like an
>> >> increase which would ensure loyalty and stability to the system.
>> >>
>> >> For nonproduction workers (17 per cent of the workforce), real hourly
>> >> product wages were 20.88 in 1978 and 34.89 in 2000. Is it these workers
>> >> (with supervisory responsibilities) to which the labour aristocracy
>> >> hypothesis refers?
>> >>
>> >> Simon
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>> >--------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Simon Mohun
>> >> Centre for Business Management,
>> >> Queen Mary, University of London,
>> >> Mile End Road,
>> >> London E1 4NS,
>> >> UK
>> >>
>> >> Tel: +44-(0)20-7882-5089 (direct); +44-(0)20-7882-3167 (Dept. Office);
>> >Fax:
>> >> +44-(0)20-7882-3615
>> >> Webpage: www.qmul.ac.uk/~ugte154/
>> >>
>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-
>> >--------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>>
>>
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