From: Philip Dunn (pscumnud@DIRCON.CO.UK)
Date: Sat Jul 16 2005 - 14:17:58 EDT
Michael Obviously, while I recognise the factors you mention, I think it is a road to nowhere. The Iraq blowback line is, I think, a loser. I admire the courage of George Galloway enormously but I think he wobbled on this. As to the Wahhabis, they may have done something but from the 1993 WTC bombing onward (entrapment) it has often been with outside assistance. We often hear that the security services find it difficult to get intelligence on Muslims. Do not believe a word of it. I think the message we are sending to Muslims is that, if you do not become like us, we will kill you. We have got form. As to MI5, I think the local agency has to be involved in these affairs. It is their patch. Finally, I must criticise myself for excessive concentration on local issues. It seems that the London Bombings have signalled that the hawks are in charge. This will be viewed with concerm by China, for example. Quoting Michael Williams <michaelj.williams@TISCALI.CO.UK>: > Phil, > > There are many puzzles in the story as it emerges in the bourgeois media. > All I am saying is that none of them add any credence to your particular > conspiracy theory involving some mystery agency (MI5 or whoever). All of > them have more plausible explanations in terms of the kinds of factors > referred to in my first message: a pre-modern perversion of a monotheistic > religion, imperialist oppression in the Arab/Persian world, racist > discrimination in the UK, the idealism of the young, the irrational > rationality of capitalist exploitation, etc. etc. > > michael > -----Original Message----- > From: OPE-L [mailto:OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU] On Behalf Of Philip Dunn > Sent: 16 July 2005 14:30 > To: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU > Subject: Re: [OPE-L] On recent events in London and elsewhere > > Michael > > Quoting Michael Williams <michaelj.williams@TISCALI.CO.UK>: > > > Phil, > > > > I too have been following this news story. It however does nothing to > > increase support for the notion of an intelligence constructed conspiracy. > > > > It makes your story neither more nor less plausible whether these guys > were > > intentional suicide bombers, murdered 'footsoldiers' or whatever. > > Consider the original suicide bomber story. The puzzle is why suicide > bombers > would be used in such an operation. There was no need for them in Madrid. > It > is, of course, easier to leave an undetected package on an overground train > than on the Tube. In that case the simplest option would be to attack > surface > trains. > > The new story does not reduce the puzzle. Why such an elaborate operation? > It > left a trail that was very easy to pickup. > > The official story has some slack built into it. Military or homemade > explosive, > timers or no timers, suicide bombers or expendibles. > > The false flag hypothesis is, I agree, not touched by this. > > > > > Frankly I am more concerned with the presumption of their guilt before any > > trial has occurred, both by police and government spokespersons and by the > > press, as well as the presumption of complicity by the whole of the > British > > 'muslim' community. > > I share your concern. British justice is supposed to enshrine the principle > of > the presumption of innocence until proven guilty... Doh! I forgot there is > not > going to be a trial. > > > Another oddity: > > http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=161366&command=disp> layContent&sourceNode=162951&contentPK=12835928 > > BOMB SHOCKER AS TEEN TOLD: WE'RE GOING TO DIE > > A Llanelli teenager may hold the key to the London bombings. The 19-year-old > was > travelling on the second carriage at King's Cross Station when a man > standing > next to her said: "Within two minutes we're all going to die." > > Moments later an explosion ripped through the first carriage, killing 21 > people. > > Naima Aboulachouaq gave detailed description of the man to London police. > > She believes he had some connection with last Thursday's shocking terrorist > attack. > > Miss Aboulachouaq, who lived with her parents in Llanelli's King George > Avenue > until she went away to work, had told her horrific story exclusively to the > Star, revealing how she narrowly escaped death. The former Coedcae School > pupil > said: "As got on the Tube there was this white bearded man standing next to > me > by the doors. He had a smirk on his face and told me that within two minutes > we > were all going to die. I thought he was crazy. > > "The next thing, everything went dark and the bomb went off." > > > > > > > > michael > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: OPE-L [mailto:OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU] On Behalf Of Philip Dunn > > Sent: 16 July 2005 05:49 > > To: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU > > Subject: Re: [OPE-L] On recent events in London and elsewhere > > > > Mike > > > > I appreciate your response. I was considering a detailed reply but things > > have > > moved on. > > > > >From the Daily Mirror: > > > > WAS IT SUICIDE? > > Why did they buy return train tickets to Luton? Why did they buy pay & > > display > > tickets for cars? Why were there no usual shouts of 'Allah Akhbar'? Why > were > > bombs in bags and not on their bodies? > > Exclusive By Jeff Edwards > > > > THE London bombers may have been duped into killing themselves so their > > secrets > > stayed hidden. > > > > Police and MI5 are probing if the four men were told by their al-Qaeda > > controller they had time to escape after setting off timers. Instead, the > > devices exploded immediately. > > > > A security source said: "If the bombers lived and were caught they'd > > probably > > have cracked. Would their masters have allowed that to happen? We think > > not." > > > > The evidence is compelling: The terrorists bought return rail tickets, and > > pay > > and display car park tickets, before boarding _ a train at Luton for > London. > > None of the men was heard to cry "Allah Akhbar!" - "God is great" - > usually > > screamed by suicide bombers as they detonate their bomb. > > > > Advertisement > > Falk AdSolution > > > > Their devices were in large rucksacks which could be easily dumped instead > > of > > being strapped to their bodies. They carried wallets containing their > > driving > > licences, bank cards and other personal items. Suicide bombers normally > > strip > > themselves of identifying material. > > > > Similar terror attacks against public transport in Madrid last year were > > carried > > out by recruits who had time to escape and planned to strike again. > > > > Bomber Hasib Hussain detonated his device at the rear of the top deck of a > > No 30 > > bus, not in the middle of the bottom deck where most damage would be > caused. > > > > Additionally, two of the bombers had strong personal reasons for staying > > alive. > > > > Jermaine Lindsay's partner Samantha Lewthwaite, 22, mother of his > > one-year-old > > son, is expecting her second baby within days. Mohammed Sidique Khan's > wife > > Hasina, mum of a 14-month-old daughter, is also pregnant. > > > > Our source disclosed: "The theory that they were not a suicide squad is > > gathering pace. They were the weakest link. > > > > "We think it's possible they were told that when they pressed buttons to > set > > off > > timers they'd have a short time to abandon the bombs and get away before > the > > blast. Instead, the bombs exploded immediately." > > > > Another intelligence source added: "Whoever is behind this didn't want to > > waste > > their best operatives on a suicide mission. Instead they used easily > > recruited > > low-grade men who may have believed they'd walk away." > > > > > > > > > > Quoting Michael Williams <michaelj.williams@TISCALI.CO.UK>: > > > > > Phil, > > > > > > I am prepared to admit into my ontology cricket-playing suicide bombers. > > > After all, many left-wing revolutionaries (including no doubt some on > this > > > list) have come from a bourgeois background and yet at one time or > another > > > espoused and implemented political violence. I could construct a Marxist > > > critique of pre-modern society, religion, ideology, the bourgeois media, > > the > > > bourgeois state as well as specifically of the capitalist economy that > > could > > > account for the London bombings without resource to fantastical > > > conspiratorial notions that drive your story. Such an account could, of > > > course, call for investigation of some of the assertions you throw up: > for > > > example, the notion that as political repressive state apparatuses > (don't > > > you just love those old Althusserion concepts?) under huge political and > > > public pressure for quick results may have persuaded themselves of > > people's > > > guilt prior to legal proceedings > > > > > > I could also construct many more plausible conspiracy theories than > yours, > > > all with sound Marxisant credentials. Given my respect for OPE-L > > subscribers > > > and the implicit 'scientific' nature of our discourse, however, I would > > have > > > promulgated such conspiracies on one of the many web-sites (from all > > > political perspectives) that enjoy such game-playing. > > > > > > Phil, have you not noticed that on this issue on this list you are > almost > > > talking to yourself - until I allowed myself to be drawn in? > > > > > > [PS: for the record, I am totally opposed to political violence both on > > > ethical and pragmatic political grounds. That is to say I would never > > engage > > > in such violence nor encourage others to do so. This does not mean that > I > > > would publicly condemn groups who feel they can demonstrate their > > situation > > > to be so desperate and intractable that they see violence as the only > > > possible course of action.] > > > > > > michael > > > ------------------------------------ > > > Michael Williams > > > Harrow Business School (E3.09) > > > Watford Road > > > Harrow > > > Middlesex > > > HA1 3TP > > > tel: 020 7911 5000 #4563 > > > fax: 020 7911 5931 > > > Home tel: 023 80768641 > > > Home Fax: 0871 242 5819 > > > michaelj.williams@tiscali.co.uk > > > M.J.Williams02@wmin.ac.uk > > > mobile: 07906 172655 > > > http://www.wmin.ac.uk/mwilliams > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: OPE-L [mailto:OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU] On Behalf Of Howard > > > Engelskirchen > > > Sent: 15 July 2005 03:28 > > > To: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU > > > Subject: Re: [OPE-L] On recent events in London and elsewhere > > > > > > not funny > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Philip Dunn" <pscumnud@DIRCON.CO.UK> > > > To: <OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU> > > > Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 2:54 PM > > > Subject: Re: [OPE-L] On recent events in London and elsewhere > > > > > > > > > Hi Andrew > > > > > > I hear you have taken to keeping explosives in the bathtup oop North. > > Makes > > > a > > > change from coal. :-) (I was born in Newcastle-on-Tyne.) > > > > > > The money question is: who is prepared to admit cricket loving suicide > > > bombers > > > into their ontology? > > > > > > Phil > > > > > > Quoting Andrew Brown <A.Brown@LUBS.LEEDS.AC.UK>: > > > > > > > Hello from Leeds. > > > > > > > > Leeds -- like rest of UK -- very different culture from Spain and NY > in > > > ways > > > > I don't have time, nor knowledge, to analyse. Anyway, there's no need > > for > > > > police occupation - there is, on the other hand, a world press > > occupation > > > of > > > > some previously anonymous backstreets. > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: OPE-L on behalf of glevy@PRATT.EDU > > > > Sent: Thu 14/07/2005 17:28 > > > > To: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU > > > > Cc: > > > > Subject: Re: [OPE-L] On recent events in London and elsewhere > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't we have a member (or members) in Leeds? What's it like > > > > there? Had the 'terrorists' come from my community in New > > > > York City, I can tell you that it would be locked-down and > > > > under police occupation. But, maybe that's a difference > > > > between the situation 'there' and 'here'? To what extent will > > > > this event further empower Blair and his 'Labour' (!) agenda? > > > > > > > > The popular response in London to the events there are quite > > > > different -- it seems to me from afar -- to the reaction of > > > > people in Madrid after the events there. Why is that? > Shouldn't > > > > it be obvious to everyone that the events in London are > > > > connected to the war against Iraq? > > > > > > > > In solidarity, Jerry > > > > Belfast, Maine > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Philip Dunn > > > > > > -- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.15/49 - Release Date: > 14/07/2005 > > > > > > > > > -- > > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.15/49 - Release Date: > 14/07/2005 > > > > > > > > > Philip Dunn > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.16/50 - Release Date: 15/07/2005 > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.16/50 - Release Date: 15/07/2005 > > > > > Philip Dunn > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.16/50 - Release Date: 15/07/2005 > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.16/50 - Release Date: 15/07/2005 > Philip Dunn
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