From: ajit sinha (sinha_a99@YAHOO.COM)
Date: Sun Oct 28 2007 - 17:06:41 EDT
--- Paul Cockshott <wpc@DCS.GLA.AC.UK> wrote: > I would agree with you that there will be > no tendancy for the dispersion of profit > rates to narrow, for the reasons you state > among others. > > If one accepts this though, one has to > make R a random variable in the transformation > equations, rather than an ordinary variable > as both Marx and Sraffa do. But we know that in > practice > it is not only a random variable, but one that > s/c is negatively correlated with c/v. ______________________ Let us leave the empirical R aside and concentrate on Marx's R. The logical steps that Marx takes is, of course, not very clear. He introduces the notion of allocation of labor according to social needs in the very first chapter of Capital I. 'Values' are supposed to be the center of gravitation of the allocative mechanism--hence there is a 'law of value'. But the precise mechanism of this allocation is not spelled out. It is because he has not yet introduced profits in the system. One is left to wonder whether the argument is conducted at the level of 'simple commodity production' or there is an implicit assumption that organic composition of capitals accross the sectors are uniform. I guess, it would be easier to take that he assumes uniform OCC. In that case, the 'law of value' equalizes the rate of profits. Then in Volume III, the assumption of uniform OCC is removed. Now, the 'law of value' has already equated the rate of profits, but this implies that 'prices of production' must deviate from 'value'. And this is the transformation problem: given the uniform rate of profit calculate the prices of production. In this process no further allocation mechanism is taking place. There is absolutely no time element involved here. Samuel Hollander, on the other hand, argues that Marx delibrately begins with disequilibrium position such that the exchange ratios are equal to value ratios and in Vol.3 he allows the disequilibrium situation to move to equilibrium position. Thus in his account, the equalization of the rate of profits and the allocation mechanism takes place precisely at the level of the transformation of values to prices of production. But even in this story the time has to be 'logical' and not 'historical' as I argued in the earlier post. Cheers, ajit sinha > > Paul Cockshott > > www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~wpc > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: OPE-L on behalf of ajit sinha > Sent: Sun 10/28/2007 6:11 PM > To: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU > Subject: Re: [OPE-L] Marx on the general rate of > profit/rate of interest: a translation error > > --- Paul Cockshott <wpc@DCS.GLA.AC.UK> wrote: > > > What is left unstated in your summary Gary is > > whether Marx expects the dispersion of profit > rates > > to narrow with > > time? > > If that does not occur what does a tendancy to > > equalise mean? > > > > Instead of a tendancy to equalise, one might > > hypothesise some constraints on the dispersion. > > > > Paul Cockshott > _________________________ > What time? What could be empirically the starting > point in time to see if dispersion rate norrows or > not? The idea of the center of gravitation cannot > deal > with what Joan Robinson called 'historical time'. > Historical time is the time of growth and > accumulation. Now, growth and accumulation theories > also put various constraints on certain > parameters--but those constraints on parameters can > be > dealt with by empirical investigations of how > 'reasonable' they are. But for the gravitation > mechanism to work itself through, you need to assume > that both techniques of production and the rate of > profits and the real wages (and consumption and > savings paterns etc.) remain constant while the > mechanism works itself out. Now, as long as growth > (or > movement along historical time) is expected to break > any of these constants, the gravitational mechanism > will have to continuously restart itself a > fresh--therefore, you will not have a starting point > or a finish point to empirically test if it works. > That's why you will have to assume steady state > growth > path on the historical time to let the gravitational > mechanism work. The classical economists, such as > Smith and Ricardo, did not asssume a steady state > growth path (Marx came close to modeling one > though). > Thus in their framework, the idea of center of > gravitation works on 'logical' or notional time and > not on 'historical time'. But as we have shown in > our > paper, the logic of it is not all that sound. > Cheers, > ajit sinha > > > > www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~wpc > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: OPE-L on behalf of Gary Mongiovi > > Sent: Sat 10/27/2007 2:06 PM > > To: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU > > Subject: Re: [OPE-L] Marx on the general rate of > > profit/rate of interest: a translation error > > > > A distinction without a difference, in my opinion. > > In either translation Marx is talking about a > > mechanism that causes profit rates to tend to > > equalize, as in Ricardo, as in Smith. Marx thought > > this tendency to be an integral aspect of how > > capitalism works, though no doubt there are > nuanced > > differences between his account & Smith's. But on > > fundamentals, as regards the existence, operation > > and centrality of the mechaninsm, they are in > > agreement. > > > > Gary > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: OPE-L on behalf of Jurriaan Bendien > > Sent: Sat 10/27/2007 7:41 AM > > To: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU > > Cc: > > Subject: [OPE-L] Marx on the general rate > of > > profit/rate of interest: a translation error > > > > > > When, in an often ignored passage, Marx > > discusses the relationship between the general > rate > > of profit and the rate of interest (in Capital > > Vol.3, Chapter 22), we read in the official > > translation: > > > > On the other hand, the general rate of > > profit is never anything more than a tendency, a > > movement to equalise specific rates of profit. The > > competition between capitalists - which is itself > > this movement toward equilibrium - consists here > of > > their gradually withdrawing capital from spheres > in > > which profit is for an appreciable length of time > > below average, and gradually investing capital > into > > spheres in which profit is above average. (...) > The > > general rate of profit... derives actually from > > causes far different and far more complicated than > > the market rate of interest, which is directly and > > immediately determined by the proportion between > > supply and demand, and hence is not as tangible > and > > obvious a fact as the rate of interest. The > > individual rates of profit in various spheres of > > production are themselves more or less uncertain; > > but in so far as they appear, it is not their > > uniformity but their differences which are > > perceptible. The general rate of profit, however, > > appears only as the lowest limit of profit, not as > > an empirical, directly visible form of the actual > > rate of profit. > > > http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1894-c3/ch22.htm > > > > We see here, that the official translation > > used by marxists.org mentions "this movement > towards > > equilibrium", suggesting Marx is an equilibrium > > theorist, rather than a dynamicist, contrary to > the > > general tenor of his discussion. > > > > Intrigued by this, I consulted the > original > > German text. Whaddaya know, the German original > DOES > > NOT MENTION EQUILIBRIUM AT ALL! > > > > Here is the passage again, now in the > > original German: > > > > Dagegen existiert die allgemeine > Profitrate > > beständig nur als Tendenz, als Bewegung der > > Ausgleichung der besondren Profitraten. Die > > Konkurrenz der Kapitalisten - die selbst diese > > Bewegung der Ausgleichung ist - besteht hier > darin, > > daß sie den Sphären, wo der Profit auf längre Zeit > > unter dem Durchschnitt, allmählich Kapital > entziehn > > und den Sphären, wo er darüber, ebenso allmählich > > Kapital zuführen (...) Die allgemeine Profitrate > > schöpft also in der Tat ihre Bestimmung aus ganz > > andren und viel komplizierteren Gründen, als die > > durch das Verhältnis von Nachfrage und Angebot > > direkt und unmittelbar bestimmte Marktrate des > > Zinses, und ist daher kein handgreifliches und > > gegebnes Faktum in der Art, wie es der Zinsfuß > ist. > > Die besondren Profitraten in den verschiednen > > Produktionssphären sind selbst mehr oder minder > > unsicher; aber soweit sie erscheinen, ist es nicht > > ihre Uniformität, sondern ihre Verschiedenheit, > die > > erscheint. Die allgemeine Profitrate selbst aber > > erscheint nur als Minimalgrenze des Profits, nicht > > als empirische, direkt sichtbare Gestalt der > > wirklichen Profitrate. > > http://www.mlwerke.de/me/me25/me25_370.htm > > > > What Marx actually says is: "The > competition > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
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