From: Dogan Goecmen (dogangoecmen@AOL.COM)
Date: Thu Dec 06 2007 - 04:11:47 EST
Paul C, in this very short email you rais lot of intersting questions and you make also some logical mistaktes that can lead to fatal consequences not only for practical revolutionary movements but also for the whole society in general. To start with logical mistake you commit is that you do not take into account how the leadership should look like the advarsary movement. In the trasitory period what we do and how we act depends not only on our principles and ideals but above all how our advarsaries act. Dialectical approach suggests, as Smith, Hegel and Marx would say, that we first analyse the way how our advarsaries act, which means they use and which tactical and strategic projects they pursue. From that perspective there is no one way for 21st century socialism. It will vary from country to country and from region to region. It will vary according to international power constalation and relations. Indeed we need to develop new concepts of leadership. Lenin, Stalin, Tito and so on they all were the leaders of their historical situation. They became what they could became in their historical situation. But what is absolutely neccessary is that we stay in power once we got into it to manage the transitory period. Popular support can chanage sometimes even from day to day. Including elections, parliament and strong leadership all means must be used to stay in power in order to deepen towards socialist society. The whole issue about socialist chanage turns around the question of property. To be successful the revolutionary government must takes measures to introduce ways of socialist ownership. Direct democracy is not a static concept. It must be the aim of revolutionary movements. But to implement it fully you have to have a socialist society with some sort of harmony of interests of individuals, cities, regions, continents. Comradely, Dogan -----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung----- Von: Paul Cockshott <wpc@DCS.GLA.AC.UK> An: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU Verschickt: Mi., 5. Dez. 2007, 17:30 Thema: Re: [OPE-L] Venezuela After the Referendum I think you are overestimating support for the measures in the referendum. There as decline in turnout as well as a decline in percentage votes since the residential election. upport for the measures was well under 50% due to large levels of abstentions. I dont want to underestimate the great service that has historically been given o ocialism by strong leaders like Stalin, Castro or Tito, but the problem with trong leaders is that they are mortal and corruptible. XXI century socialism has to develop non monarchical forms of state power, and think direct democracy is the answer. If the constitution had proposed bolishing oth the head of state and the parliament and replacing these by a people's ssembly hosen by lot, then we would have been making real progress. Remember what Marx aid bout the combination of legislative and executive functions as being a key o communitarian democracy. It is notably that in his series of articles on this Wood has had to justify the bolition of term limits by looking at imperialist states like the UK and ermany, aying they have no term limits. Well that may be true, but it is hardly a ecomendation rom the standpoint of revolutionary democracy. Woods is using republican rather han democratic arguments. aul Cockshott ept of Computing Science niversity of Glasgow 44 141 330 3125 ww.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~wpc/reports/ -----Original Message----- rom: OPE-L on behalf of Dogan Goecmen ent: Wed 05/12/2007 2:27 PM o: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU ubject: Re: [OPE-L] Venezuela After the Referendum The change in property rights, though, requires a commitment nd understanding on the part of the masses for such a change. istory, I think, teaches us that revolutionary change can not be mposed (or, at least, sustained) from above by enlightened leaders." Hi Jerry, at least 50 percent of the people support a revolutionary change. ow many percent is needed to make such changes in property rights. think that the revolutionary process must go on with more radical political easures, exactly because people need to be empowered. therwise the revolutionary government may lose the popular support. omradely, ogan ----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung----- on: GERALD LEVY <gerald_a_levy@MSN.COM> n: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU erschickt: Mi., 5. Dez. 2007, 15:16 hema: Re: [OPE-L] Venezuela After the Referendum >>> I agree wit everything you say. But I feel that there is a deeper problem ere that needs to be addressed. nce again Venezuela experience shows that the change of political power must be ccompanied by the change of property rights. nd this in turn requires some radical political measures. This cannot be done ithout centralising the political power. Justifiably people expect some mprovements in the material conditions of their lives. If political measures re delayed in that respect understandably people will get impatient and will ot show any interests in what so ever is happening in the country. That almost alf of the people did not go to vote is a sign of tiredness. In South Africa olitical power has changed. Black people got their citizen rights. But the aterial conditions of their lives have hardly changed. Just because the South frican government did not touched property rights. <<< i Dogan: he change in property rights, though, requires a commitment nd understanding on the part of the masses for such a change. istory, I think, teaches us that revolutionary change can not be mposed (or, at least, sustained) from above by enlightened leaders. s Mike L recently put it, "Without workers' control, there can be o socialism". A corollary might be: without mass participation nd consensus, there can be no genuine revolution. This is message that should have been learned in Venezuela when the asses, following the brief CIA-inspired coup, took to the streets nd put Chavez back in the President's office. Chavez owes verything - including his life - to that mass support. The challenge, hus, for the Bolivarians is to assist in the empowerment of the asses - the ones who will in the last analysis be the agents of evolutionary change. n solidarity, Jerry = ________________________________________________________________________ ei AOL gibt's jetzt kostenlos eMail für alle. Klicken Sie auf AOL.de um heraus u finden, was es sonst noch kostenlos bei AOL gibt. ________________________________________________________________________ Bei AOL gibt's jetzt kostenlos eMail für alle. Klicken Sie auf AOL.de um heraus zu finden, was es sonst noch kostenlos bei AOL gibt.
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