Re: [OPE] Venezuela and the right-wing opponents of democracy

Alejandro Agafonow wrote:
>
> So you are against election and favor lotteries and plebiscites Paul?
>
>
>
> The You foresee a sort of political parties competing for the approval
> of rival plans that have to be voted. What is this but an election?
>
The difference is that political parties compete to govern over the
population, to seize hold of the apparattus of the state and use it.
This, I believe, is at the root of the degeneration of previously
existing socialism. A political class arises which initially governs in
the interests of the people, but whose own interests diverge in time (
often quite quickly) from those that they claim to represent.
I see democracy as being a matter of the people themselves deciding on
major issues.

>
>
> The difference rests in the constitution under which your rival plans
> would be voted. As I sustain in my paper, that I hope will be
> published in Revista de Economía Institucional, is that the
> problematic, missing piece in your work is the way we reach this new
> constitution.
>
>
>
> Yours,
>
> A. Agafonow
>
>
> ----- Mensaje original ----
> De: Paul Cockshott <wpc@dcs.gla.ac.uk>
> Para: Outline on Political Economy mailing list
> <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>; Outline on Political Economy mailing list
> <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
> Enviado: viernes, 26 de septiembre, 2008 9:41:44
> Asunto: RE: [OPE] Venezuela and the right-wing opponents of democracy
>
> My own ideas on democracy do not coincide with those of Alexandro, since
> I am against elections and favour lotteries and plebiscites. However,
> in the light of
> 20th century experience we should not close our eyes to processes which
> could lead to one party rule. In my view, the answer though is to move
> to a more democratic constitution which it is harder for the right
> to make use of. In this context the Chavez government obviously made
> considerable progress. I was however not convinced by the attempt
> to remove term limits in the last referendum.
>
> Paul Cockshott
> Dept of Computing Science
> University of Glasgow
> +44 141 330 1629
> www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~wpc/reports/
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu on behalf of Alejandro Agafonow
> Sent: Fri 9/26/2008 8:08 AM
> To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list
> Subject: Re: [OPE] Venezuela and the right-wing opponents of democracy
>
> 1) Jerry: "Then you shouldn't use expressions like "left-wing
> dictatorship".
> should you?"
>
> I referred to Castro and Cuba when using the expression "left-wing
> dictatorship", not Venezuela.
>
> 2) Jerry: "It might help if a proposal made by Marx and Engels in _The
> Communist Manifesto_ was made the official policy in Venezuela:
> "confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels"."
>
> Of course I disagree. Socialism has a lot to do concerning the
> revision of its ideas about property. Fortunately some avan-garde
> currents started to do so.
>
> 3) Jerry: "Even Jimmy Carter said the elections were fair and free,
> didn't he?"
>
> Yes, but the Center Carter only certifies elections in a specific
> point of the time, that when the ballot is carried out. I think that
> UNDP's index of democracy has a broader perspective considering the
> handicaps in a longer period of time.
>
> Nevertheless, the more serious and plain threaten to democracy under
> Chávez is the recent ban of opposition leaders.
>
> Regards,A. Agafonow
>
>
> ----- Mensaje original ----
> De: GERALD LEVY <gerald_a_levy@msn.com>
> Para: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
> Enviado: jueves, 25 de septiembre, 2008 15:39:17
> Asunto: RE: [OPE] Venezuela and the right-wing opponents of democracy
>
>
> > Venezuela doesn't have a dictatorship. yet.
>
>
> Hi Alejandro:
>
> Then you shouldn't use expressions like "left-wing dictatorship".
> should you?
>
> I agree that it is legitimate to fear the coming of a dictatorship
> in Venezuela - after all, wasn't it just last week that 'opposition'
> military officers were caught planning the assassination of Chavez?
> Then, there was the experience of the 2002 coup which - had it
> been successful - would have _surely_ brought into power a brutal
> dictatorship.
>
> In the presence of such threats (not merely to Chavez and the Bolivarians
> but to the nation - especially the working class and the poor) one has
> to be
> on-guard, vigilent, and resolute.
>
> If there is a failing of Chave in this regard, it is that he has been
> _too_
> accomodating to the opposition - in the name of 'forgiveness' and
> national reconciliation.
>
>
>
> _Surely_, you would agree with that policy as a deterrant? Yes?
>
>
>
> > But it certainly stops to fully fulfill the minimal elements that
> define
> > an electoral democracy: 1) right to vote, 2) fair elections, 3) free
> elections
> > and 4) elected public offices. When does Venezuela stop to fulfill these
> > requirements?
>
>
>
> Even Jimmy Carter said the elections were fair and free, didn't he?
>
>
> All of the chatter about lack of democracy is disingenuous, imo:
> had the opposition won the election, _then_ they would have said
> it was fair, but they denounced it as 'undemocratic' _simply_ because
> they lost. _Please_ understand this - the opposition is _not_
> democratic!
> They want to _overthrow_ democracy!!! This was _proven_ in the 2002
> coup and in their actions (including, illegal plots) since.
>
>
> > This minimal definition of "electoral democracy" has to be the
> departure for
> > Socialists, and build upon it more complex models of economic democracy.
>
>
>
> The "minimal definition" of democracy for socialists must be majority
> rule.
> This means (since they are the overwhelming majority) that the working
> class and the poor must rule.
>
>
> In solidarity, Jerry
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Received on Fri Sep 26 07:10:17 2008