Re: [OPE] Latin America

Paul B.,
yes, we are in agreement. And I think this is the only practical political way. To say: "I support you on the conditions that..." is to require something that is hardly possible in practical political matters. After the October Revolution there was a widespread discussion in Europe whether or not to support the revolutionary government. German right wing social democrats, ultra leftist and so-called Austrian Marxists (Max Adler, Otto Bauer etc) said we support October Revolution on the "condition that..." Practically this ment a non-support because whith this position one defines himself/herself outside the movement. It was this context in which Clara Zetkin formulated her position. Rosa Luxemburg's critique is often misunderstood. Her criticism did not mean "I ?support you on the condition that ..." Her position may also be seen as an unconditional support. If one wants to support realy then he/she must do this uncondionally - in particular in the times of transition. ?When!
  I say I support Cuban and Venezuelan government unconditionally it means that I am clearly on the side of revolutionary movement. Any other position is either indifferent or against it. This however does not mean one is not critical. On the contrary in particular in times of transition circumstances require that we are very critical but also clearly on the side of revolutionary change toward socialism.

Cheers, Dogan

-----Original Message-----
From: paul bullock <paulbullock@ebms-ltd.co.uk>
To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
Sent: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:33
Subject: Re: [OPE] Latin America

Dogan

?

we are clearly in agreement. What is bdifficult to understand is how on earth one could ever get to the stage where one demanded absolute perfection in order to fully support the strategic ?direction of policy. It seems to me that PZ's comments exclude him from support.

?

Paul do you see 'unconditional support' as actually conditional upon the supporter's notion of perfect behaviour, where there are unmet 'criticisms' ? and so an impossible sort of support? I see it as the support that does not simultaneously demand conditions, which is, I believe, Lenin's conception.

?

?

Paul B.

----- Original Message -----

From: dogangoecmen@aol.com

To: ope@lists.csuchico.edu

Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:11 PM

Subject: Re: [OPE] Latin America

Paul Z
=======
Indeed, if I hear someone in demo giving "unconditional support" to the Cuban government or the Venezuelan government, I react that the person is either immature politically or, worse, a Stalinist. At minimum, it is ineffective as a turn of phrase trying to capture opposition to my country's practices abroad, i.e., U.S. imperialism.

Dogan
======
I think you simplify things. I am probabily not the first one on the list who said that he/she supports Cuban and Venezuelan government uncondionally. When I said that I referred to Clara Zetkin who had a similar approach in raltion to October revolution. When she said that she did mean to support every single political mesure. That what she supported was the general tendecy of the revolutionary government to break out of capitalis/imperialist world system and establish a socialist society. So you can not say she was politically premature or a Stalinst. Similarly I support the general tendency in Cuba and Venezuela to establish a socialist society. This does not mean I am not critical. But my critique intends to improve rather than obstucle the development toward a socialist society.

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Zarembka <zarembka@buffalo.edu>
To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
Sent: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:45
Subject: Re: [OPE] Latin America

Paul B.,?
?
Thanks for your elaboration on the ANC.?
?
However, your subsequent paragraph copied below contradicts "unconditional support" for any foreign state, it being that "airy opinion" you reproach. Indeed, if I hear someone in demo giving "unconditional support" to the Cuban government or the Venezuelan government, I react that the person is either immature politically or, worse, a Stalinist. At minimum, it is ineffective as a turn of phrase trying to capture opposition to my country's practices abroad, i.e., U.S. imperialism.?
?
Paul Z.?
?
--On 12/11/2008 12:16 AM +0000 paul bullock wrote:?
?
> It seems to me that the task of communists/ socialists/ democrats in the?
> imperialist states is to expose and fight against the activities of their?
> own state, and businesses in continuing to exploit the nominally?
> independent state, not give airy opinion about, or unwanted advice to the?
> movements that are struggling against imperialism.?
>?
?
?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~?
(Vol.23) THE HIDDEN HISTORY OF 9-11 Seven Stories Press soft, 2nd ed. 2008?
(Vol.24) TRANSITIONS IN LATIN AMERICA ~~~Research in Political Economy~~~?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/PZarembka?
?
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Received on Sun Dec 14 12:44:54 2008