[OPE] (no subject)

From: Diego Guerrero <diego.guerrero1@telefonica.net> Date: Thu Mar 05 2009 - 06:34:02 EST · This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Tue Mar 31 2009 - 00:00:03 EDT

---
    De: GERALD LEVY <gerald_a_levy@msn.com>
    Para: Outline on Political Economy mailing list =
<ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
    Enviado: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 4 de marzo, 2009 20:20:02
    Asunto: RE: [OPE] Venezuela is the most democratic country in Latin =
America
    >  where the mother of Ch=C3=A1vez appeared sumptuously dressed.=20
    =20
    =20
    Let's see the picture, Alejandro. If  Chavez's mother was so =
"sumptuously dressed", I imagine _lots_ of people saw that and lots of =
pictures were taken.
    =20
    =20
    > Your tolerance of these abuses=20
    =20
    =20
    No, what you are seeing it is my *intolerance* of the spreading of  =
*urban myths* on this list.
    Anyone is free to say what they want on this list, provided it is =
not a flame, but if claims are=20
    made then the person making them (in this case, you) should be held =
accountable to others=20
    on the list.=20
    =20
    >  you don=E2=80=99t support accountability mechanisms indeed .
    =20
    =20
    See above. I am holding *you* accountable for *your* claims. Please =
note that I am *in NO=20
    way* threatening you. On the contrary, the worst that can happen to =
you is simply that others on the list and the readers of the archive =
will know that your claims about Chavez can not  be supported=20
    with credible, independent evidence.  Frankly, I think they've =
already seen more than enough to=20
    come to that assessment, but I leave it to others to come to their =
own conclusions.
    =20
    In solidarity, Jerry
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
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  _______________________________________________
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>No, that began more recently. In any =
case, it was=20
not a signed article, but an "anonimous" writing by the editorial=20
team.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>You can see in the today's edition of =
El Pa=C3=ADs that=20
the editorial article BELONGS to the Opinion section:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.elpais.com/articulo/opinion/Darfur/exige/justicia/elpe=
puopi/20090305elpepiopi_1/Tes">http://www.elpais.com/articulo/opinion/Dar=
fur/exige/justicia/elpepuopi/20090305elpepiopi_1/Tes</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Diego</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dalejandro_agafonow@yahoo.es=20
  href=3D"mailto:alejandro_agafonow@yahoo.es">Alejandro Agafonow</A> =
</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dope@lists.csuchico.edu=20
  href=3D"mailto:ope@lists.csuchico.edu">Outline on Political Economy =
mailing=20
  list</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 05, 2009 =
12:22=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OPE] Venezuela is =
the most=20
  democratic country in Latin America</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif">
  <DIV><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">Have you seen the section of =
the=20
  newspaper in which this article was published, Diego? It is clearly=20
  indentified as the opinion section.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">I just checked it. The =
editorials have a=20
  heading which states: EDITORIAL.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
  <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: =
EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">A=20
  Agafonow</SPAN></SPAN><BR></P></DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif"><BR>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif"><FONT=20
  face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
  <HR SIZE=3D1>
  <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">De:</SPAN></B> Diego Guerrero =
&lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:diego.guerrero1@telefonica.net">diego.guerrero1@telefonica=
.net</A>&gt;<BR><B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Para:</SPAN></B> Outline on Political =
Economy=20
  mailing list &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:ope@lists.csuchico.edu">ope@lists.csuchico.edu</A>&gt;<BR>=
<B><SPAN=20
  style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Enviado:</SPAN></B> jueves, 5 de marzo, =
2009=20
  11:43:42<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Asunto:</SPAN></B> =
Re: [OPE]=20
  Venezuela is the most democratic country in Latin =
America<BR></FONT><BR>=EF=BB=BF=20
  <STYLE type=3Dtext/css>DIV {=0A=
MARGIN:0px;}=0A=
</STYLE>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Why <FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><FONT size=3D3>to=20
  "<SPAN style=3D"BACKGROUND: white">giv[e] to El Pa=C3=ADs the benefit =
of the doubt"=20
  if it backed the coup against Ch=C3=A1vez (in 2002) that put in power =
the president=20
  of the employers?</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.elpais.com/articulo/opinion/VENEZUELA/Golpe/caudillo/e=
lpepiopi/20020413elpepiopi_2/Tes"=20
  target=3D_blank=20
  =
rel=3Dnofollow>http://www.elpais.com/articulo/opinion/VENEZUELA/Golpe/cau=
dillo/elpepiopi/20020413elpepiopi_2/Tes</A></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Diego</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE=20
  style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A =
    title=3Dalejandro_agafonow@yahoo.es =
href=3D"mailto:alejandro_agafonow@yahoo.es"=20
    target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow=20
    ymailto=3D"mailto:alejandro_agafonow@yahoo.es">Alejandro =
Agafonow</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dope@lists.csuchico.edu=20
    href=3D"mailto:ope@lists.csuchico.edu" target=3D_blank =
rel=3Dnofollow=20
    ymailto=3D"mailto:ope@lists.csuchico.edu">Outline on Political =
Economy mailing=20
    list</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 05, =
2009 10:05=20
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OPE] Venezuela =
is the=20
    most democratic country in Latin America</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif">
    <DIV>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">In a country with strong =
institutions=20
    of accountability, <SPAN style=3D"BACKGROUND: white">feature</SPAN>s =
like=20
    those below would motivate an investigation on the part of competent =
    authorities.</SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
lang=3DES-TRAD=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">Los Ch=C3=A1vez en su =
Feudo</SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
lang=3DES-TRAD=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.elpais.com/articulo/reportajes/Chavez/feudo/elpepusocd=
mg/20081123elpdmgrep_1/Tes"=20
    target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow><FONT=20
    =
color=3D#800080>http://www.elpais.com/articulo/reportajes/Chavez/feudo/el=
pepusocdmg/20081123elpdmgrep_1/Tes</FONT></A></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
lang=3DES-TRAD=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN =
lang=3DES-TRAD=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">Bienvenidos a=20
=E2=80=98Chavezlandia=E2=80=99</SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"><A=20
    =
href=3D"http://www.elpais.com/articulo/portada/Bienvenidos/Chavezlandia/e=
lpepusoceps/20061203elpepspor_6/Tes"=20
    target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow><FONT=20
    =
color=3D#800080>http://www.elpais.com/articulo/portada/Bienvenidos/Chavez=
landia/elpepusoceps/20061203elpepspor_6/Tes</FONT></A></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">But these institutions are =
being=20
    dismantled in Venezuela . Our last hope relies on the socialists, =
who we=20
    expect to have untouched integrity and the <SPAN=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: white">courage</SPAN> to denounce any departure =
from=20
    strict transparency criteria. Well, some these socialist in =
Venezuela react,=20
    not <SPAN style=3D"BACKGROUND: white">giving to El Pa=C3=ADs the =
benefit of the=20
    doubt</SPAN>, but openly insulting this <SPAN=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: white">newspaper</SPAN>, like did </SPAN><FONT=20
    size=3D3><SPAN>Jos=C3=A9 Sant Roz in Aporrea:</SPAN><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"><A=20
    href=3D"http://www.aporrea.org/medios/a27845.html" target=3D_blank=20
    rel=3Dnofollow><FONT=20
    =
color=3D#800080>http://www.aporrea.org/medios/a27845.html</FONT></A></SPA=
N></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black">Concerning OPE-L, there is a =
big=20
    problem with its design. As far as I understand it was conceived to =
let a=20
    group of socialist scholars to debate controversial issues beyond =
the biases=20
    that daily militancy life impose. But since its archives are open, =
some of=20
    these socialists feel obliged to show their <SPAN=20
    style=3D"BACKGROUND: white">loyalty</SPAN> with the militancy, with =
which I=20
    suspect they have tight-bounds.</SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman'">It is=20
    a pity but in this scenario a sincere and transparent discussion is=20
    impossible.</SPAN></SPAN></P>
    <P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman'"></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black"></SPAN>&nbsp;</P><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman'">A.=20
    Agafonow</SPAN><BR></DIV>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif"><BR>
    <DIV=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, =
times, serif"><FONT=20
    face=3DTahoma size=3D2>
    <HR SIZE=3D1>
    <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">De:</SPAN></B> GERALD LEVY=20
    &lt;gerald_a_levy@msn.com&gt;<BR><B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Para:</SPAN></B> Outline on Political =
Economy=20
    mailing list &lt;ope@lists.csuchico.edu&gt;<BR><B><SPAN=20
    style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Enviado:</SPAN></B> mi=C3=A9rcoles, 4 de =
marzo, 2009=20
    20:20:02<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Asunto:</SPAN></B> =
RE: [OPE]=20
    Venezuela is the most democratic country in Latin =
America<BR></FONT><BR>
    <STYLE>=0A=
.hmmessage P=0A=
{=0A=
margin:0px;padding:0px;}=0A=
body.hmmessage=0A=
{=0A=
font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}=0A=
</STYLE>
    <SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
    size=3D3>&gt;&nbsp; where the mother of Ch=C3=A1vez appeared =
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; BACKGROUND: white; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman'">sumptuous</SPAN><SPAN=20
    lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman'">ly=20
    </SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New =
Roman'"><FONT=20
    size=3D3>dressed. </FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3D3>Let's see =
the picture,=20
    Alejandro. If&nbsp; Chavez's mother was so "sumptuously dressed", I =
imagine=20
    _lots_ of people saw that and lots of pictures were=20
    taken.</FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3D3>&gt; Your =
tolerance of=20
    these abuses </FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3D3>No, what you =
are seeing=20
    it is my *intolerance* of the spreading of&nbsp; *urban myths* on =
this=20
    list.</FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3D3>Anyone is =
free to say=20
    what they want on this list, provided it is not a flame, but if =
claims are=20
    </FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3D3>made then =
the person=20
    making them (in this case, you) should be held accountable to others =
    </FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3D3>on the list. =
    </FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3D3>&gt; =
&nbsp;you don=E2=80=99t=20
    support accountability mechanisms indeed .</FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3D3><SPAN =
lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT =
size=3D3>See</FONT></SPAN> above.=20
    I am holding *you* accountable for *your* claims. Please note that I =
am *in=20
    NO </FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3D3>way* =
threatening you. On=20
    the contrary, the worst that can happen to you is simply that others =
on the=20
    list </FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3D3>and the =
readers of the=20
    archive will know that your claims about Chavez can not &nbsp;be =
supported=20
    </FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3D3>with =
credible,=20
    independent evidence.&nbsp; Frankly, I think they've already seen =
more than=20
    enough to </FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3D3>come to that =
assessment,=20
    but I leave it to others to come to their own=20
    conclusions.</FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT=20
    size=3D3></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;<BR><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
    style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><FONT size=3D3>In =
solidarity,=20
    Jerry</FONT></SPAN><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>
    <P>
    <HR>
    <P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>ope =
mailing=20
    =
list<BR>ope@lists.csuchico.edu<BR>https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/list=
info/ope<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>
  <P>
  <HR>
  <P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>ope mailing=20
  =
list<BR>ope@lists.csuchico.edu<BR>https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/list=
info/ope<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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