Re: [OPE] market - and other kinds of - socialism

From: B.R.Bapuji <>
Date: Tue May 03 2011 - 01:34:20 EDT

Paul, If it is not wrong on my part to take out a sentence like this from your comments, you said: "and this is only to be discussed, by the working class itself,  as they create such societies." I would like to know who constitute 'working class'? Are we [those who are engaged in mental occupations of teaching, research or some such activity] not part of working class, though the upper stratum of it? I hope you won't misunderstand me that I am diverting the debate. Bapuji   B.R.Bapuji, Professor, Centre for Applied Linguistics & Translation Studies [CALTS], University of Hyderabad, Central University post office, HYDERABAD-500 046. (Phone: 040-23133655,23133650 or 23010161). Residence address: 76, Lake-side Colony, Near Durgam Cheruvu, [End of Road opp:Madapur Police Station], Jubilee Hills post, Hyderabad-500033. (Phone: 040-23117302)   ________________________________ From: Paul Bullock <> To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <> Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:40:44 PM Subject: Re: [OPE] market - and other kinds of - socialism The point to remember is that capitalist societies will have a common structure of exploitation and reproduction. Socialist societies that are this able to run the show , ratehr than having the show run them, will show a very great variation in structure and experiment, and this is only to be discussed, by the working class itself,  as they create such societies. We can't have the answer before the answer, and we have to build it. On 02/05/2011 14:24, GERALD LEVY wrote: >> now back to me: i take it that the discussion is really centering on >> the third of these ideas. however, i just do not understand the use of >> the noun, socialism, here. there is nothing socialist about china: the >> state is operating as a capitalist. like any capitalist, it has >> various uses for the surplus that its capitalist production generates: >> some is expended, some is accumulated. and like any capitalist, it >> seeks to use (other arms of) the state to advance its own interests: >> eg, infrastructure-building stimulus packages. i know that the term >> 'market socialism' is still used by the leadership, but that's >> placating the masses (especially those older folk who thought that on >> balance mao was pretty good for ordinary people). > > > Michael W: > > Thanks for your clarifications via 'Wikipedia' of the different meanings of > market socialism. > > In so far as China is concerned, I was specifically referring to the > Deng Xiaoping 'socialist market economy' experience - which had a lot of > similarities to the Right Opposition's proposals in the > industrialization debates in the USSR in the late 1920s (which were > advanced by Bukharin) and the proposals to restructure the Soviet > economy under Gorbachev (perestroika). One could similarly identify > similarities - and differences, of course - between what happened in > China under Deng and the Lange-Kalecki conception of market socialism > and the experiences with market socialism in Hungary under the NEM, the > former Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia and other Eastern European nations > (especially those which were part of COMECON). [NB: AS I explicitly noted > in the last sentence, there are similarities *and differences* in these > experiences: e.g. there was workers' control of enterprises in Yugoslavia > under Tito whereas the managers who directed enterprises in the NEM in > Hungary were state-appointed. Some of the institutions and their role in > China, such as the influence of the PLA, were also distinct.] > > In  solidarity, Jerry > >> That's why I originally in this thread raised the subject in terms of >> economic history (including the experience of market socialism in >> the former Yugoslavia, China under Deng Xiaoping, Hungary >> under the NEM beginning in 1968, etc.).                        > _______________________________________________ > ope mailing list > > > > _______________________________________________ ope mailing list

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