I don't want to pass over the new debate that has started on
IVA and  the like without clearly welcoming Duncan's  [3073] 
which, I  think, opened up a new chapter  of the  discussion  
as is  clear from the subsequent  flurry  of exchanges. 
I do agree  wholeheartedly  with  the following  point and I
wanted to state  this agreement regardless of the subsequent
evolution of the debate:
"We  now  have the advantage of being able to focus  on  the
 real  point  of  dispute, which is the definition  of  value
 added.  This  issue  arises only when prices  are  changing,
 which  clarifies the importance of non-stationarity  to  the
 TSS position."
I  think this hits the nail right on the head. My  objection
to  simultaneous valuation has always included the fact that
value added emerges as a result instead of a starting point.
Whatever the surrounding metaphysical argument, in the actual
mathematics of the thing, prices and profits are not determined 
by hours worked but by the maximum eigenvalue of a fixed-point 
equation. Value added is then an 'interpretation' of this and
has no independent standing. As a consequence, if we alter the
magnitude of value added by, for example, changing the number
of hours worked without changing the real wage received, the
profit rate is as far as I can see in most presentations 
unaffected. For Marx it has always seemed to me rather crucial 
that if people work harder, the capitalists make more profits.
Otherwise what is absolute surplus value about?
In  a dynamic framework there is no such predetermination of
anything.  The only thing which is determinate is the  past,
and  the  reason  for  this is that it *is*  the  past,  and
therefore cannot be altered by the subjective desires of the
consumers of the product.
For  a  dynamic formulation it appears at first  sight  that
nothing determines the price of outputs or the magnitude  of
profits. These are completely arbitrary, which has led David
Laibman  to exclaim that without simultaneous determination,
there  is  no  theory  of anything.  I  can  understand  his
exasperation  but in my view the equations are indeterminate
because life is indeterminate, and only on the basis of such
indeterminacy can live reality be captured.
Nevertheless, a system with very many degrees of freedom  is
not  a system with no laws at all, or there would be no laws
of  physics.  In my view *value* definitely is  determinate,
and  it  is  given  at  any moment by  the  fact  that  a  a
determinate  amount of dead labour given  by  the  price  of
inputs  and  the existing monetary expression of  value,  is
combined with a determinate amount of living labour given by
the  time  taken  to  work up this dead labour  into  a  new
product.
The  question  for  me is this: in order  to  progress  from
stocks  and  prices at a given point in time, to stocks  and
prices  at the next point in time, we have to identify  some
fundamental and persistent property of the system  in  terms
of  which  this  progression can be described.  We  require,
moreover, a definition of this fundamental property,  value,
which  ensures  that the value emerging from  production  is
independent  of  the price for which the  produced  good  is
subsequently sold.
Without  such  a  quantity, we cannot for example  make  any
statements    about   surplus,   or   distribution,    hence
exploitation or intercapitalist competition, since we cannot
say  *what*  is being distributed as a result of  subsequent
changes in the price of the product and hence of the profits
of the various sectors.
In   the  simultaneous  framework,  value  is  a  structural
property  of  the entire system independent of its  history.
The  ratio,  therefore, between the value added in  monetary
terms  and  the  value added in terms of  labour  hours,  is
determined  by  the  technology  of  the  system   and   the
assumption of an equal profit rate.
In  a  dynamic framework, on the contrary, there is no  such
determination. We cannot assume an equal profit rate and  we
cannot  make any assumption at all about future prices.  All
we  know  is the given value of the money that was paid  for
the inputs to production including the wage.
As  I  see  it,  therefore, there is no way to  make  values
determinate - no way to arrive at the value of the product -
except by adding to this pregiven (because past) value, some
quantity  either equal to or derived from the  actual  hours
worked to produce the product.
We  cannot  calculate value added on the basis of  the  sale
price  of the product because we do not know what this  sale
price  is,  at  the moment when the product  has  only  been
produced but not sold. We are at the C' stage of the circuit
of reproduction, not the M' stage.
If  we  attempt  to  define value added in  purely  monetary
terms,  then it seems to me we cannot adequately distinguish
between  purely  nominal changes in  the  price  level,  and
genuine  technical change. Indeed in a certain  sense  isn't
this the whole point of having a theory of value?
My own inclination is to say that the monetary expression of
this value added is simply obtained by multiplying the hours
worked  by the monetary expression of value that held  prior
to  production. So, if at time t the value of  money  (=mev)
was  $1  per  hour and workers work for 10 hours,  then  the
monetary  expression of value added to the product  at  time
t+1 is $10.
Differences may arise from the following. It may be that the
actual  sale price of the product is more than $10 in excess
of  costs.  In  this  case, I would say  that  the  monetary
expression  of  value has changed, but the  issue  that  now
needs to be discussed is, by how much has it changed?
My position has always been that the new monetary expression
of  value  can  only be calculated by dividing  the  *total*
price  of all stocks of all commodities by the *total* value
of the same collection of commodities.
The  problem  is the following. Suppose, for  example,  that
prior  to  production there were in existence  stocks  whose
value was $1000 in value. We know that this represents  1000
hours because the mev was $1 per hour.
Now  suppose that some of this stock is worked up into a new
product  with the 10 hours of labour, so that the new  value
of  stock including sales stock, measured in hours, is  1010
hours.  Suppose that all prices now double, due to a  sudden
inflation  brought  about, say, by an  external  devaluation
relative  to  some other currency (this is  a  future  world
where  either  US  finance capital can no  longer  determine
exchange rates or US technology lets me send E-Mails without
using  the $ sign for every currency in the world)  In  that
case, the new price of this stock of goods will be $2020.
I  think it is very hard, and leads to many problems, to say
that  the labourers have added $1020 to the product and that
the  value  of  money is therefore $102 per  hour.  I  would
prefer to reason as follows:
A)measured in hours, the workers added 10 hours to create  a
  new  stock  of  all goods whose total value  is  1010,  as
  previously stated.
  
B)measured  in pre-inflation money, these workers added  $10
  to create a stock whose value is $1010
  
C)a  new  monetary expression of value comes into  existence
  at  the point that the market establishes a new price  for
  the  commodities  of  which this stock  consists  (the  M'
  phase  of  the  circuit)  . This is  given  by  the  ratio
  between  the dollar price of all stocks now in  existence,
  and  their value in hours, that is, $2020/1010 or  $2  per
  hour
  
D)measured   in  post-inflation  money,  the  pre-production
  stocks  were worth $2000, since the exchange rate  of  old
  for  new dollars is 2/1. In this same measure, the workers
  have added $20.
  
I think this leads to a fully determinate calculation of the
value  of  money that holds for any arbitrary sales  prices,
that  provides  for  a clear distinction between  value  and
price,   and   which   makes   no   assumptions   concerning
stationarity  at  all.  I know, however,  that  this  result
contradicts both the New Solution definition of the value of
money and Alejandro's. I wrote a short piece on this for the
1995 EEA but it seems to have got buried.
My feeling is that it would be very fruitful to discuss this
further because I think it may turn out to be an issue which
can  be  resolved by a more careful definition of  terms.  I
think the distance between us in terms of the general way we
conceive of the value of money is quite small, and  I  think
as I have said before that the concept of the value of money
introduced by the New Solution is absolutely seminal.
Now,  as  regards IVA I strongly agree that this is  a  very
important  concept but I would urge caution  to  distinguish
monetary  effects from genuine technical change.  Indeed,  I
think the great merit of a value-based approach
I  find  nothing to disagree with in the following point  of
Duncan's:
"But  it  seems  to  me  that the nub of  the  issue  is,  in
 accounting  terms, whether or not one includes  the  IVA  in
 value  added,  or  in terms of the labor  theory  of  value,
 whether or not one attributes the change in the money  value
 of   inventories   over  the  production   period   to   the
 expenditure of living labor.
"I  hope  that Alan  will accept my claim that excluding  the
 IVA  from  value  added is not the same  as  assuming  input
 prices  are  equal  to output prices, nor  does  it  violate
 Alan's  principle that the money paid for the  inputs  ought
 to   equal  the  money  received  for  the  inputs.  In  the
 equations we clearly distinguish p(t) from p(t-1), so  input
 prices  are not being assumed to be equal to output  prices.
 The  equations clearly reflect the fact that the money  paid
 by  the  capitalist for the inputs is p(t-1)a, the  same  as
 the  money  received by the producers. The issue is  whether
 or  not  in  applying the principle that it is living  labor
 that  adds value to the product, we should count the IVA  as
 part of the value added or not."
I  haven't  followed  through all the implications  of  this
assertion  in  the  subsequent debate but  as  it  stands  I
completely  agree. Living labour is unaltered by changes  in
asset  values.  Moreover we need to account  separately  for
changes  in  asset values precisely in order to measure  the
distributional impact of these changes. And  I  don't  think
that  accounting for stock revaluation runs counter  to  the
dynamic  principle  though we do need  to  distinguish  pure
price  effects,  brought about by changes in  the  value  of
money  (mev)  from  real  value  effects  brought  about  by
technical change.
Indeed the concept of asset revaluation is central to my own
understanding  of the course of the business cycle,  of  the
causes  of moral depreciation, and of the reasons for uneven
development.
In  the  last  chapter  of our book, I derived  differential
equations that can be written as follows:
     vX + p'<K> = pA + L
     pX+ p'<K> = pA + L + E
where  X  is a matrix giving the flow rate of outputs,  A  a
matrix giving the flow rate of inputs, L the flow vector  of
hours  worked  and E the flow vector of differences  between
the  realisation  price of goods and the value  embodied  in
them.  E  summarises all the behavioural particularities  of
the  system.  It  sums to zero. K is the general  matrix  of
capital  stocks  of  all kinds including  production  goods,
sales  stocks,  monetary  stocks and  stocks  of  secondhand
consumer  durables. <K> is the diagonal matrix  obtained  by
summing  K  across  commodities.  P'  here  means  the  time
derivative of price.
The profit equations are as a result modified as follows:
     S = L - V + p'(K - <K>)
     Profit = L - V + p'(K-<K>) + E
where  S  is  the  vector  of flow rates  of  surplus  value
generation  and  'Profit' is the vector  of  flow  rates  of
profit  generation. The sum of S is the same as the  sum  of
profits, and the rate of profit is therefore independent  of
E, which is why I claim that the profit rate does not depend
on any particular behavioural assumption.
The  difference  between these equations  and  the  standard
value equations, apart from the lack of an equal profit rate
assumption,  is  the  term p'<K> which  I  term  the  'stock
revaluation' term. The rate at which value is added  to  any
product  is diminished by the rate at which value  is  being
transferred to or from the total stock of that good, due  to
changes in the price of the capital stocks brought about  by
technical  change or relative prices. The rate at which  any
capital  makes a profit is then modified by a redistribution
term  p'(K-<K>) which transfers value from all those  owning
stocks that are rapidly declining in value, to those ownning
stocks that are slowly declining or rising in value.
In the case of general technical advance, all elements of p'
are  negative  and gross value produced in  each  sector  is
correspondingly  smaller.  However,  value  added   is   not
affected. So I agree with Duncan.
Moreover  the loss of value is greater for those capitalists
who   possess  stocks  of  rapidly-depreciating  goods,  for
example those who buy hi-tech goods from the North. I should
maybe  have  called this extra term the 'moral depreciation'
term  since, as far as I can see, it quantifies this concept
exactly. My point in the moral depreciation debate  is  that
moral depreciation must be completely independent of current
value added, or we end up with the idea that value can arise
out of nowhere. So this is close to what you say.
If the analysis is pursued it is found that the equation
 K'=I
in  value  terms, where I is that portion of the  surplus  S
that  is invested, is exactly true. Hence the capital  stock
will  rise  as long as the capitalists invest  any  part  of
their  surplus.  The  equation r =  S/K  is  also  found  to
represent  exactly the price rate of profit if the  monetary
expression of value remains constant.
[Incidentally  if  we  add  some  accelerator  condition  on
investment,  eg that I' is a proportion alpha*S  of  surplus
given  by  the  difference between r and some target  profit
rate, then we get a stable business cycles in which the only
variable is the profit rate]
Now,  if  the  monetary  expression of  value  in  my  sense
changes,  I  found  the  following seems  to  hold:  if  the
monetary expression of value is m then the equations have to
be modified to read
 R = r + m'/m
Here R is the money rate of profit and r is the 'real' rate.
That  is,  the  money  rate of profit  is  increased  by  an
inflation  term equal to the proportionate rate of  increase
in the monetary expression of value.
The monetary term corresponds to the fact that I can make  a
profit  in  money terms merely by holding onto  goods  whose
price is rising.
We  can thus clearly distinguish by this means that part  of
the  profit  rate  due  to 'real' factors  from  the  purely
monetary effects of inflation
This  also,  I  think,  helps explain what  happens  in  the
business  cycle.  As Marx notes, during  booms  there  is  a
generally rising rate of all prices (m' positive) caused  by
excess  demand.  This raises the observed,  monetary  profit
rate  above its real rate, which is in any case high because
the preceding slump has wiped out capital values.
At  a  certain  point,  the rate of profit  begins  to  fall
because  of  the  rise  in capital stock.  But  as  long  as
monetary  inflation persists, that is until  the  effect  of
declining  profit  rates is manifested in  a  slackening  of
investment,  this  is  not  immediately  perceived  by   the
capitalists, who therefore overinvest.
Now,  at  some  point a general fall-off in  demand  begins.
However, there is now negative feedback. For, once a decline
in  prices  sets in, the sign of the m'/m term reverses  and
there  is  a sudden sharp decline in realised money profits.
This,  I  think,  might  help account for  the  catastrophic
nature of the onset of the slump phase.
The  underlying real profit rate is in any case already low,
so that profits fall below a level at which fresh investment
on a large scale can continue.
The  consequential  fall in the prices of  investment  goods
wipes  out  both fictitious capital values in stock  markets
and  excessively valued productive assets, so that  as  Marx
puts  it,  the  slump performs the function  of  readjusting
prices  down to real values. Because of the dynamic term  in
the price and value equations there is a knock-on effect  on
profits  as  stock values collapse. At this point  there  is
genuinely negative investment first because even though  the
capitalists  do repurchase inputs they do so  on  a  reduced
scale,  and  second  because  this  renewal  is  offset   by
declining asset values.
Finally  capital prices have fallen to the point  where  the
real  profit rate begins to recover, and the cycle restarts.
So I think that the equations are quite useful. There are no
particular behavioural assumptions in them as they hold  for
any  arbitrary  E. My personal view is that this  is  rather
important   since,  if  they  depended  on  any   particular
behavioural  assumptions,  they  would  be  less   generally
applicable.
However,  one word of caution is required: the above  is  my
own  view and not a general TSS view. In order to derive the
above equations, I argue that in the process by which social
or  market values are formed from individual values, capital
stocks  enter  the  averaging  process  along  with  current
production.  This rather controversial view is not  generall
shared.  Nevertheless, differences on this question  do  not
affect the elements of qualitative agreement on the rate  of
profit, because our difference with Okishio is a consequence
of  dynamic  valuation and arises no matter what  method  of
dynamic  valuation is employed. There is in fact a  spectrum
of  such valuations which are possible and I think you  will
see   just  about  every  possible  variant  from  different
'TSSers'.
Our  original purpose in calling our EEA conference  was  to
discuss  out  these questions among ourselves, but  we  were
joined  by  a  lot  of  other folk and  it  seemed  just  as
important to discuss with them, too. I'm glad we did.
There really is no TSS orthodoxy!
Alan