------ =_NextPart_000_01BBC712.FB997EA0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Andrew:
Of course, v = 0 is not *my* whole idea. It is an assumption that Marx
employs twice in _Capital_, and it is regularly employed in constructing the
wage/profit rate frontier, as Alan has noted.
Paul:
In constructing the wage/profit frontier one is concerned with constructing
a least upper bound. One is concerned to show that the rate of profit
must always be below this level. It is invalid to assume that it can ever
reach this level, since v must always be >0.
Andrew:
I find this debate depressing and frustrating. By means of introspection, I
reach certain conclusions. When Paul doesn't like them, he demands empirical
evidence. When I supply the evidence, he challenges it - by means of
introspective arguments (and irrelevancies about volunteers).
Paul:
I dont dispute that if Andrew goes round and asks a dozen people if they will
work for nothing he will get the great majority saying no. But I take this as evidence
confirming the absurdity of postulating a capitalist economy with no wages.
What I had asked for was a different kind of evidence, evidence in support of
Andrews other contention - that repression costs were sufficiently significant
as a factor for capitalists to themselves be a motivation for the introduction
of labour saving machinery. This is, as far as I know, an original hypothesis
of his - I have certainly never come across it before in the literature. In advancing
such a novel hypothesis one can only expect it to gain acceptance if one
can adduce evidence to support it. To do this one would have to first develop
some method of measuring these costs, secondly one would have to have
some means of attributing expenditure on machinery as being motivated by
a desire to save repression costs, and thirdly one would have to apply these
methods to a significant body of statistical data.
Andrew:
It is just
this type of thing that turned me off long ago to attempts to prove things
empirically. It can't be done. Someone can always pick at the evidence and
refuse to accept it. The whole thing then becomes endless, with everybody
trotting out more and more evidence, with no outcome possible unless the
parties happen to *agree*. No thanks. I'll stick with refuting fallacious
arguments. Because everyone knows how to think, this does yield a clear
outcome, even when the outcome is not acknowledged openly.
Paul C:
That is not how science works. When one publishes experimental or empirical
evidence one has to publish the means by which it was produced so that other
people can attempt to reproduce one's results. If the contentions one is making
are of general interest, other people will attempt to reproduce your results.
If you have made errors in your calculations or deliberately falsified your results
this will probably be discovered. For instance mistakes that I had made in
preparing time series for the UK economy for publication in C and C were spotted
and pointed out in print within a year. We then had to print a retraction and
correction. By this process, if the question is of concern to a body of researchers,
a corpus of broadly reproducible results is produced. It is on such reproducible
results that science advances.
It is testimony to the imaturity of Marxian economic research that such a body of
reproducible results has only started to be built up in the last 30 years or so.
I am much encouraged however by the scrupulous care and high standards of
empirical work in the new generation of researchers trained at places like the
New School who will, I am sure, provide us with a much broader and deeper
collection of empirical evidence.
------ =_NextPart_000_01BBC712.FB997EA0
Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64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------ =_NextPart_000_01BBC712.FB997EA0--