Re: [OPE] Special TV report on Venezuela

Dear Michael,
since you declared that you want to leave the list in a reply to my post I think I have reply to you even if my post may not be the real reason why you want to leave the list. Firstly, my post was not ment to attack or insult anybody on the list least of all you. If it came accross in this sense then I apologise because was not my intention at all. Please reconsider your decission because despite all our mistakes and failures we have a very good dicussion group that is able to dicuss not just political but also highly theoretical issues.
That we have all different interests is part of being member of any discussion group. I hope you will reconsider your decission and rejoin our discussion group and continue contributing highly interesting ideas.
All the best,
Dogan 

-----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung-----
Von: Michael Williams <michael.williams.j@googlemail.com>
An: 'Outline on Political Economy mailing list' <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
Verschickt: So., 7. Dez. 2008, 23:35
Thema: RE: [OPE] Special TV report on Venezuela

“a bit of class instinct”: sorry, what is this?

It seems obvious to me that what the report is saying is that in the face of the achievements of the Chavez regime, any opposition will have to offer a candidate with substance, not just ‘presentation’ (implied: like the last candidate who was beautiful but lacking in substance).

“If the report was really a bit friendly to Chavez it would have perhaps co
ncluded by an assertion how to stabilise and improve people's power in Venezuela.”

Maybe the reporter didn’t think that was his place to offer advice on how to entrench Chavez power? Why should he. You appear to be re-enforcing my assertion that a reporter is for you only worth listening to if they appear to agree with your line. In which case, you will only take seriously partisan reports within your particular salami slice of left politics, which will set you up nicely to become in due course a mindless apparatchik carrying out whatever in the name of some outcome which is unachievable without robust scepticism about all those who wield power.

I reject the notion that I am either for everything the Chavez regime does or I am for the opposition. I am for some things Chavez is attempting, against others and undecided about yet others. Doesn’t it give you pause for thought that your phraseology mirrors closely that of various war-mongering US presidents claiming that  if you are not with us you are against us … and off to Gitmo with you?

It is not a question of impartiality in class struggle: only a very few BBC reporters see class struggle as a real phenomenon; and I am concerned with SUCCESSFUL class struggle on behalf of the wretched of this earth. This is a hard, detailed, ongoing task. One which I can no longer see as aided by my participation in a forum in which the few remaining active members seem to know the outcome of a dis
cussion before it is even started.

So (Jerry) I’m outta here. Please unsubscribe me.

Michael W

From: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu [mailto:ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu] On Behalf Of dogangoecmen@aol.com
Sent: 07 December 2008 15:17
To: ope@lists.csuchico.edu
Subject: Re: [OPE] Special TV report on Venezuela

Dear Michael,

I gues one has not just to posses the intellectual ability to write and analyse texts but also one has to have a bit of class instinct to grasp subtile suggestions BBC is making there. The report begins with projects that are aimed at and changes that have taken place over last ten years. Then it sort of presents the opposition's unability to seize the power back. And finally there comes the concluding sentence I quoted below. It says a lot more than "the opposition will need a strong and substantive candidate to defeat the incumbent". It says: "the opposition are still going to need a lot more than a candidate with a pretty face to defeat him." I emphises: "a lot more than a candidate". The report says that after it referred to some changes in the economic and political constitution of Venezuela. So I think that I am and any other reader is entitled to ask what the report is suggesting with this concluding remark. As pointed out in the report one of the major changes that have taken place over the last ten years is that the participation of subordinated people in political decision has increased by more than 10 percent. This s
hows that political consciousness among subordinated people must have increased. If you put this in relation to the concluding remark I can think of many scenarios that may be drawn from it. I think for example of the general Kenan Evren who seized the power in 1980 in Turke y by a military junta. He justified this by saying "we had to take power because peoples's consciousness went well beyond the system". I am not saying that BBC report is suggesting this. But it is one of the possible conclusions one can draw from it.

If the report was realy a bit friendly to Chavez it would have perhaps concluded by an assertion how to stablise and improve people's power in Venezuela.
 
To make sure I do not blame BBC for being partial. We all have to be partial in this struggle despite all our critique. As the report says there is no middle ground in Venezuela. You are either for people's power as presented by Chavez or for the opposition. I criticise BBC for presenting itself as impartial though it is very well partial.
 
I suggst we give up the naive approach that we can be impartial in class struggles - an attitude so common among intellectuals throughout the world.

DG

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Williams <michael.williams.j@googlemail.com>
To: 'Outline on Political Economy mailing list' <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
Sent: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 23:18
Subject: RE: [OPE] Special TV report on Venezuela

0A

Well, this sentence just says that the opposition will need a strong and
substantive candidate to defeat the incumbent, even though that incumbent has been in office for a long time (which under elective democracy is often accompanied by a falling off of popular support).

Whatever the sketchiness of the rest of the short report, this statement is mildly positive about Chavez.

I hold no special brief for the BBC, but let’s not misinterpret what they say to reinforce our pre-existing political entrenched positions about either Chavez or the biases of the bourgeois media.

michael W

From: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu [mailto:ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu] On Behalf Of dogangoecmen@aol.com
Sent: 06 December 2008 21:17
To: ope@lists.csuchico.edu
Subject: Re: [OPE] Special TV report on Venezuela

"But what is clear is that after 10 years in office, the opposition are still going to need a lot more than a candidate with a pretty face to defeat him."
 
This is how the report ends. What is the BBC trying to say? There is very little about the major changes that have taken place over last 10 years. So it is a seeming impartial report with a more or less clear partiality in favour of the so called USA paid, CIA supported opposition.

Dogan

-----Original Message-----
From: Alejandro Agafonow <alejandro_agafonow@yahoo.es>
To: OPE List <OPE@lists.csuchico.edu>
Sent: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 21:23
Subject: [OPE] Special TV report on Venezuela

In the link below you can see on-line
the short special TV report on Venezuela, which BBC screened yesterday:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7767417.stm

I’ll wait for your comments.

Sincerely yours,

A. Agafonow

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Received on Tue Dec 9 03:02:57 2008