No Rakesh, I am not ignoring Grossman because you laud him--I simply haven't read him! But I will make amends. Can you send me some references (off-list, if you prefer). Cheers, Steve At 09:34 AM 3/24/01 -0800, you wrote: >re 5247 > >>Hi Rakesh. >> >>You remind us of some good points Marx made about Ricardo's world view, >>but I was talking more narrowly about the concept of the "use-value" of a >>machine. >> >>Duncan > >Dear Duncan, >Marx's dynamics centers on the contradictory use value of the machine (and >you would surely put the point much better than I do here). > > On the one hand, the machine is useful to the capitalist because it > allows him to reduce unit values by substituting a lesser sum of indirect > labor for a greater sum of paid direct labor on a per unit basis (of > course if capitalists had to pay for the total labor performed, instead > of simply labor power, the use value of the machine would even have a > greater scope). On the other hand, the machine is useful in that it > allows for the absorption of surplus labor or production of newly added > value. However, the less direct labor employed relative to total > capital--that is, the more unit values are reduced--the more difficult it > becomes for the capitalist to absorb surplus labor. > >However, Marx does not only consider the use of machines from the >perspective of value or net revenue. On the one hand, Marx emphasizes the >use of machines on gross revenue, i.e., in terms of the use values >available for working class consumption. On the other hand, Marx >emphasizes that even from the narrow perspective of valorization or >absorption of surplus labor, what matters is not only the value of >machinery but its quantity in use value terms. So as I said in my last >post with an expanded mass of the elements of production, even if their >value is the same, more workers can be introduced into the productive >process and in the next cycle of production these workers will be >producing more value. > >That is, it does seem to me that qualitative improvements in the machine >producing sector are quite important for Marx. This is where I seem to be >disagreeing with you. That is, use value (in the sense of the quantity >of machines as use values) plays a different role in Marx's theory than in >political economy and Ricardo's theory in particular. > >It seems to me that the question we are trying to answer is why Marx >emphasized in his notes on A Wagner that use value is not only not ignored >in his theory, it plays a novel role. > >Sweezy's denial of the importance of use value is one approach; Steve's >answer is another . Grossman's interpretation of Marx is yet another. >It's strange to me that Steve would laud several people but Grossman for >emphasizing the centrality of use value to Marx though Rosdolsky whom >Steve praises to the sky is only summarizing Grossman's argument. I am >hoping that Steve is not ignoring Grossman because I have associated >myself with him. > >Yours, Rakesh > > > > > > > > > > >> >>>re 5231 >>> >>>> So they try to find measures of the "qualitative improvement" of >>>> capital. (The new machine, which costs the same as the old one, can >>>> shape twice as many pieces of metal or execute twice as many >>>> instructions.) This is completely foreign to the Marxian/Classical >>>> (and even /Sraffian) way of looking at capital, and, as far as I can >>>> tell, just adds confusing noise to the macroeconomic data. If, as Marx >>>> argues, the use-value of a machine to the capitalist is the amount of >>>> wage cost it saves, changes in the concrete performance of the machine >>>> are irrelevant. >>>> >>>>Duncan >>> >>>Hi Duncan, >>>It seems to me that Marx is not so exclusively interested in the value >>>surplus at the expense of use value. For example, Marx criticizes >>>Ricardo for only being concerned with net revenue (pure profit), the >>>value surplus of price over costs, and not gross revenue, i.e., the mass >>>of use values necessary for the subsistence of the working >>>population. Marx criticizes Ricardo precisely for only figuring these >>>use values as costs which are to be pushed down as low as possible. So >>>for an employer who makes $2000 profit on a capital of >>>$20,000--10%--it is utterly irrelevant whether his capital sets 100 or >>>1000 people into motion...as long as in all instances profit does not >>>fall below $2,000. Since as you say above anything other than this value >>>surplus is, as you say above, noise to the macroeconomic data, Marx >>>writes: "By denying the importance of gross revenue, i.e, the volume of >>>production and consumption--apart from the value surplus--and hence >>>denying the importance of life itself, political economy's abstraction >>>reaches the peak of infamy." >>> >>>Moreover, as I suggested in my last post, the expansion in the mass of >>>use values in which a given sum of value is represented is indeed of >>>great INDIRECT significance for the valorization process. For example, >>> >>>There is indeed for Marx a dialectic of use value and value in more than >>>just the consumption of labor power. Steve credits Rosdolsky for >>>rescuing this key element of Marx's theory. But if Steve were to study >>>the footnotes of Rosdolsky, he will find that he is drawing from >>>Grossmann's work. In both HG's magnum opus and dynamics book there is >>>attention to said dialectic. >>> >>>Yours, Rakesh >> >>-- >>Duncan K. Foley >>Leo Model Professor >>Department of Economics >>Graduate Faculty >>New School University >>65 Fifth Avenue >>New York, NY 10003 >>(212)-229-5906 >>messages: (212)-229-5717 >>fax: (212)-229-5724 >>e-mail: foleyd@cepa.newschool.edu >>alternate: foleyd@newschool.edu >>alternate: dkf@ultinet.net >>webpage: http://cepa.newschool.edu/~foleyd Dr. Steve Keen Senior Lecturer Economics & Finance Campbelltown, Building 11 Room 30, School of Economics and Finance UNIVERSITY WESTERN SYDNEY LOCKED BAG 1797 PENRITH SOUTH DC NSW 1797 Australia s.keen@uws.edu.au 61 2 4620-3016 Fax 61 2 4626-6683 Home 02 9558-8018 Mobile 0409 716 088 Home Page: http://bus.uws.edu.au/steve-keen/
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