[OPE-L:7343] Re: Re: Re: interpreting Marx's texts

From: Fred B. Moseley (fmoseley@mtholyoke.edu)
Date: Thu Jun 06 2002 - 00:52:07 EDT

On Wed, 5 Jun 2002, Rakesh Bhandari wrote:

> re 7328
> >
> >What do others think about Shaikh's argument here, reproduced by Rakesh?
> >
> >It makes no sense to me.  It has always seemed mystifying to me.  I do not
> >understand the distinction between "conceptual determination" and "real
> >determination".  I thought conceptual determination (i.e. a theory) was
> >supposed to explain the real determination (in reality).  If the "real
> >determination" was that values determine the physical production
> >quantities, then the  "conceptual determination" would explain how this
> >happens, and how the specific quantities are determined.
> Dear Fred,
> I hesitate to reply because it would be wonderful if Anwar elaborated 
> the argument himself. Please do note that I only quoted a small part 
> of the argument, so consultation of the original is important.
> Anwar seems to use conceptual determination and calculation interchangeably.
> I think the argument is clearer if we use only the latter term.
> I offered an analogy which may have failed.
> My simple point was that there can be methods of calculation which 
> may give the right result which  do not lay bare the real process of 
> determination.

Rakesh, I have two questions of clarification for now:

1.  What do you think is the difference between "conceptual
determination" and "calculation"?  Why do you prefer "calculation" over
"conceptual determination"?  And what exactly is "real
determination"?  How is "real determination" related to  "conceptual

2.  What would you say Marx was doing in the determination of prices of
production in Part 2 of Volume 3: "real determination" or  "conceptual
determination" or  "calculation"?  

I look forward to your replies and to further discussion.


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