From: Michael Williams (michaelj.williams@TISCALI.CO.UK)
Date: Sat Jul 16 2005 - 07:56:43 EDT
Phil, I too have been following this news story. It however does nothing to increase support for the notion of an intelligence constructed conspiracy. It makes your story neither more nor less plausible whether these guys were intentional suicide bombers, murdered 'footsoldiers' or whatever. Frankly I am more concerned with the presumption of their guilt before any trial has occurred, both by police and government spokespersons and by the press, as well as the presumption of complicity by the whole of the British 'muslim' community. michael -----Original Message----- From: OPE-L [mailto:OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU] On Behalf Of Philip Dunn Sent: 16 July 2005 05:49 To: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU Subject: Re: [OPE-L] On recent events in London and elsewhere Mike I appreciate your response. I was considering a detailed reply but things have moved on. >From the Daily Mirror: WAS IT SUICIDE? Why did they buy return train tickets to Luton? Why did they buy pay & display tickets for cars? Why were there no usual shouts of 'Allah Akhbar'? Why were bombs in bags and not on their bodies? Exclusive By Jeff Edwards THE London bombers may have been duped into killing themselves so their secrets stayed hidden. Police and MI5 are probing if the four men were told by their al-Qaeda controller they had time to escape after setting off timers. Instead, the devices exploded immediately. A security source said: "If the bombers lived and were caught they'd probably have cracked. Would their masters have allowed that to happen? We think not." The evidence is compelling: The terrorists bought return rail tickets, and pay and display car park tickets, before boarding _ a train at Luton for London. None of the men was heard to cry "Allah Akhbar!" - "God is great" - usually screamed by suicide bombers as they detonate their bomb. Advertisement Falk AdSolution Their devices were in large rucksacks which could be easily dumped instead of being strapped to their bodies. They carried wallets containing their driving licences, bank cards and other personal items. Suicide bombers normally strip themselves of identifying material. Similar terror attacks against public transport in Madrid last year were carried out by recruits who had time to escape and planned to strike again. Bomber Hasib Hussain detonated his device at the rear of the top deck of a No 30 bus, not in the middle of the bottom deck where most damage would be caused. Additionally, two of the bombers had strong personal reasons for staying alive. Jermaine Lindsay's partner Samantha Lewthwaite, 22, mother of his one-year-old son, is expecting her second baby within days. Mohammed Sidique Khan's wife Hasina, mum of a 14-month-old daughter, is also pregnant. Our source disclosed: "The theory that they were not a suicide squad is gathering pace. They were the weakest link. "We think it's possible they were told that when they pressed buttons to set off timers they'd have a short time to abandon the bombs and get away before the blast. Instead, the bombs exploded immediately." Another intelligence source added: "Whoever is behind this didn't want to waste their best operatives on a suicide mission. Instead they used easily recruited low-grade men who may have believed they'd walk away." Quoting Michael Williams <michaelj.williams@TISCALI.CO.UK>: > Phil, > > I am prepared to admit into my ontology cricket-playing suicide bombers. > After all, many left-wing revolutionaries (including no doubt some on this > list) have come from a bourgeois background and yet at one time or another > espoused and implemented political violence. I could construct a Marxist > critique of pre-modern society, religion, ideology, the bourgeois media, the > bourgeois state as well as specifically of the capitalist economy that could > account for the London bombings without resource to fantastical > conspiratorial notions that drive your story. Such an account could, of > course, call for investigation of some of the assertions you throw up: for > example, the notion that as political repressive state apparatuses (don't > you just love those old Althusserion concepts?) under huge political and > public pressure for quick results may have persuaded themselves of people's > guilt prior to legal proceedings > > I could also construct many more plausible conspiracy theories than yours, > all with sound Marxisant credentials. Given my respect for OPE-L subscribers > and the implicit 'scientific' nature of our discourse, however, I would have > promulgated such conspiracies on one of the many web-sites (from all > political perspectives) that enjoy such game-playing. > > Phil, have you not noticed that on this issue on this list you are almost > talking to yourself - until I allowed myself to be drawn in? > > [PS: for the record, I am totally opposed to political violence both on > ethical and pragmatic political grounds. That is to say I would never engage > in such violence nor encourage others to do so. This does not mean that I > would publicly condemn groups who feel they can demonstrate their situation > to be so desperate and intractable that they see violence as the only > possible course of action.] > > michael > ------------------------------------ > Michael Williams > Harrow Business School (E3.09) > Watford Road > Harrow > Middlesex > HA1 3TP > tel: 020 7911 5000 #4563 > fax: 020 7911 5931 > Home tel: 023 80768641 > Home Fax: 0871 242 5819 > michaelj.williams@tiscali.co.uk > M.J.Williams02@wmin.ac.uk > mobile: 07906 172655 > http://www.wmin.ac.uk/mwilliams > > -----Original Message----- > From: OPE-L [mailto:OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU] On Behalf Of Howard > Engelskirchen > Sent: 15 July 2005 03:28 > To: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU > Subject: Re: [OPE-L] On recent events in London and elsewhere > > not funny > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Philip Dunn" <pscumnud@DIRCON.CO.UK> > To: <OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU> > Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2005 2:54 PM > Subject: Re: [OPE-L] On recent events in London and elsewhere > > > Hi Andrew > > I hear you have taken to keeping explosives in the bathtup oop North. Makes > a > change from coal. :-) (I was born in Newcastle-on-Tyne.) > > The money question is: who is prepared to admit cricket loving suicide > bombers > into their ontology? > > Phil > > Quoting Andrew Brown <A.Brown@LUBS.LEEDS.AC.UK>: > > > Hello from Leeds. > > > > Leeds -- like rest of UK -- very different culture from Spain and NY in > ways > > I don't have time, nor knowledge, to analyse. Anyway, there's no need for > > police occupation - there is, on the other hand, a world press occupation > of > > some previously anonymous backstreets. > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: OPE-L on behalf of glevy@PRATT.EDU > > Sent: Thu 14/07/2005 17:28 > > To: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU > > Cc: > > Subject: Re: [OPE-L] On recent events in London and elsewhere > > > > > > > > Don't we have a member (or members) in Leeds? What's it like > > there? Had the 'terrorists' come from my community in New > > York City, I can tell you that it would be locked-down and > > under police occupation. But, maybe that's a difference > > between the situation 'there' and 'here'? To what extent will > > this event further empower Blair and his 'Labour' (!) agenda? > > > > The popular response in London to the events there are quite > > different -- it seems to me from afar -- to the reaction of > > people in Madrid after the events there. Why is that? Shouldn't > > it be obvious to everyone that the events in London are > > connected to the war against Iraq? > > > > In solidarity, Jerry > > Belfast, Maine > > > > > > > > > Philip Dunn > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.15/49 - Release Date: 14/07/2005 > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.15/49 - Release Date: 14/07/2005 > Philip Dunn -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.16/50 - Release Date: 15/07/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.16/50 - Release Date: 15/07/2005
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