Re: [OPE] Is 'dialectic' a scientific, pre-scientific or pseudo-scientific concept?

paulbullock@ebms-ltd.co.uk

Dogan,

The locating of a social contradiction is at the same time the identification of an opposition which must necessarily resolve itself.. an opposition that is the expression of an 'inherent' obstacle to the process of change in a society, a change that will allow the existing relations to develop ...this 'tension' is the source of energy which propels the system to 'jump' to a new stage ( in this sense I see conceptual similarities to quantum mechanic ideas). EG. money evolved because with   barter every commodity played the peculiar role of  being both the relative and the equivalent value, both the use value in one transaction and then on another occasion the 'money commodity', in the end this 'schizoid' condition forced society to allocate the money role to only one, special, and materially adequate, commodity, and the contradiction which was latent within every commodity as use value and measure of value is 'relieved'... now that contradiction is expressed in the separation of money from goods, a new and higher stage of contradiction.  As in this case the whole of Marx's work aims to show how an historical development can be explained by assessing the nature of social contradictions, their 'tension' , which is their 'motor', and their resolution. This cannot be dealt with by speaking glibly of 'change' or an ( abstract) dynamic.

Hope this helps 

Paul
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: dogangoecmen@aol.com 
  To: ope@lists.csuchico.edu 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 4:47 PM
  Subject: Re: [OPE] Is 'dialectic' a scientific,pre-scientific or pseudo-scientific concept?

  Dave Z suggests to replace the concept of dialectic as such. This is what I was opposing. What you seem to suggest to replace is just a formal one, namely the title. But I do not see the reason or necessity for this change. The term dialectics a overall term describing a general concept of the world. The concept of contradiction is a core concept as Hegel, Marx, Engels and Lenin pointed out. But dialectics is not just about contradiction. It contains also the concept of identity and many others. So prefer to stick to our overall term Dialectics to refer to a particular approach in natural and social scieces, and epistemology, in short, in the disciplines of *Sein* and *Bewusstsein*.

  But I do not understand what you mean by the last sentence of your post: "The idea of 'dynamic' or 'change' don't point to this 'motor'." May I ask you to expound on that a bit please.

  Dogan 

  -----Ursprüngliche Mitteilung----- 
  Von: ope-bounces@lists.csuchico.edu
  An: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
  Verschickt: Mi., 2. Apr. 2008, 12:37
  Thema: Re: [OPE] Is 'dialectic' a scientific, pre-scientific or pseudo-scientific concept?

  I am a bit surprised at this exchange. Firstly given the period in which Hegel Marx and Engles wrote, the notion that  change was continuous certainly conflicted with the method that all sciences tended to rely on, AND we shoud bear in mknd that 'social science' was barely in its infancy... ( where do we start there? earlier than Comte?). Static or relative static / mechanical assessments were the norm. So the reassertion of the 'dialectic' ( almost whatever sense of dynamism one gives it) with hegel was 'revolutionary'.

  Secondly no one has really tried to define dilectical reasoning here... Lenin was sincere enough to study Hegel in order to clarify his mind about the process Marx had gone through, even though Marx's method is absolutely different from Hegel...(and from the 'material' side different from eg Holbach)  So why don't we try to see if  'ready to hand' words that suggest motion and change really are sufficient to replace the 'word' dialectic.. as has been suggested in this exchange by DZ... OR whether it presents a specific method with definite philosophical grounds and which provides therefore a particular approach to investigation?  Certainly DZ's comments  seem to exclude the basic dialectical premise that each social formation contains within it the contradictions which will result in its supercession by another. This isn't an idea that can be expressed by the word 'change' or 'dynamic'. The essential concept is  that of 'contradiction'... and it the identification of the actual , material, contradictory social relations, that is fundamental  in the investigation. The idea of 'dynamic' or 'change' don't point to this 'motor'.

  P Bullock

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: dogangoecmen@aol.com 
    To: ope@lists.csuchico.edu 
    Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 5:38 PM
    Subject: Re: [OPE] Is 'dialectic' a scientific,pre-scientific or pseudo-scientific concept?

    Dave, we are from entirely different "planets". I do not see any easy way of solving our differences in the short term. It is perhaps not a bad idea to leave to time to solve - if at all. Below my replies.

    Dogan
    ========

    "Dialectics is the only scientific concept today". 

    Dave Z:
    ======
    Certainly this is a mistake. By extension all other concepts are non-scientific. 
    Thus physics, biology etc., which have no need to use 'dialectic', would be non-scientific.

    Reply
    ======
    This is a mistake. Dialectics is a universal concept and applies to all sciences and humanities - of course in different forms.
    Please take the terms: coldness versus and warmness; hardness versus softness; universal and particular; illness and healthiness. 

    Without thinking these and many other contradictory terms we cannot explain anything.  Dialectics says we have to think these contradictory terms as unities and that they are represented in one another. The motion from one to other is a process of quantitative and qualitative processes. Let's take for example illness. Can we define what illness is if do not think of healthiness at the same time. And we fight against illness because we usually know that healthiness is immanent in illness. Similarly with all other terms.

    Dogan
    ======
    Can you please give some reasons to justify your claim that dialectics is pre or even pseudo-scientific? 

    Dave Z
    =======
    There doesn't seem to be a precise meaning of 'dialectic', it means whatever the author wants. But most often it is used as a description of processes that are driven by the form "thesis, anti-thesis and synthesis". At other times the emphasis is shifted to describe processes that change quantitatively up to a point and then make a qualitative "leap".

    Reply
    ======
    It is not as arbitrary as you seem to think how one defines dialectics as a concept of the world. It is an ontological concept and must be discovered in things rather than in schematic definitions. The reasons you give prove that even natural sciences cannot do without dialectics. The concepts you refer to below are all dialectical concepts though they may be used unconsciously: "Dynamical systems" (was first developed against mechnic mode of thought and approach by dialecticians); 'discontinuities' (implies the concept of continuity); 'feedback signals' (implies the dialectic of action reaction); 'phase transitions' (highly dialectical concept because it implies changes from one characteristic to another) onanther have more precise meaning and predictive power in scientific theories. Since these concepts proves the vice versa your claims "Dialectic is at best a redundant concept",  "dialectic' is used as pseudo-scientific nonsense" and so on stand.

    Regards,
    Dogan

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