Re: [OPE] Latin America

Alejandro,
by "critical" I mean a general attitute of any Marxist. To be revolutionary means to be critical permanently.
As to negative liberties. If you want to see how history functions please look at English or French or Americal revolution.?When the October Revolution inforce revolutionary change it had to eclude tousand s of people from the right to vote. In that sense it was "undemocratic". But it at the same time freed milions of people from serfdom and slavary in its literal and modern sense. John Locke who is the father of the concept of modern freedom supported cutting of nagative freedom. So temporary cutting of positive or negative liberties in times of transition does not necessarily mean that the government is undemocratic.?In Venezuela the government may have cut off some negative liberties but it at the same time started freeing millions and millions of peole (peasant, workers, minoroties, women) from their slavery. But you have also to bear in mind that cutting off some negative liberties is a temporary measure. There are in Cuba and Venezuela however still so many platforms t!
 o formulate your criticism. So if you want realy to be part of the revolutionary movement and improve it you can go and criticise there. But if you want to support. You seem to have an entirely different aim. I know this game. What did the West do in the time of cold war? They seemed to defend human rights - this was what they claimed to defend. What happened after the collaps of socialist regimes? Please look to fomer socialist countries. ?The slavery in its literal sense returned to the agenda. And people who supported this so-called human rights movements supported at the same this development and therefore they in my view commited to human crime. So not everybody who seem to defend freedom whatever is for freedom and not everybody who cuts off negative freedom temporarily is against freedom.
?
Dogan

-----Original Message-----
From: Alejandro Agafonow <alejandro_agafonow@yahoo.es>
To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
Sent: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:07
Subject: Re: [OPE] Latin America

Dogan: 'I support the general tendency in Cuba and Venezuela to establish a socialist society. This does not mean I am not critical. But my critique intends to improve rather than obstucle the development toward a socialist society.'

?

What is your constructive criticism to Cuba and Venezuela? How it deals with the cutting of negative liberties?

?

A. Agafonow

De: "dogangoecmen@aol.com" <dogangoecmen@aol.com>
Para: ope@lists.csuchico.edu
Enviado: domingo, 14 de diciembre, 2008 14:11:05
Asunto: Re: [OPE] Latin America

Paul Z
=======
Indeed, if I hear someone in demo giving "unconditional support" to the Cuban government or the Venezuelan government, I react that the person is either immature politically or, worse, a Stalinist. At minimum, it is ineffective as a turn of phrase trying to capture opposition to my country's practices abroad, i.e., U.S. imperialism.

Dogan
======
I think you simplify things. I am probabily not the first one on the list who said that he/she supports Cuban and Venezuelan government uncondionally. When I said that I referred to Clara Zetkin who had a similar approach in raltion to October revolution. When she said that she did mean to support every single political mesure. That what she supported was the general tendecy of the revolutionary government to break out of capitalis/imperialist world system and establish a socialist society. So you can not say she was politically premature or a Stalinst. Similarly I support the general tendency in Cuba and Venezuela to establish a socialist society. This does not mean I am not critical. But my critique intends to improve rather than obstucle the development toward a socialist society.

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Zarembka <zarembka@buffalo.edu>
To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
Sent: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:45
Subject: Re: [OPE] Latin America

Paul B.,?
?
Thanks for your elaboration on the ANC.?
?
However, your subsequent paragraph copied below contradicts "unconditional support" for any foreign state, it being that "airy opinion" you reproach. Indeed, if I hear someone in demo giving "unconditional support" to the Cuban government or the Venezuelan government, I react that the person is either immature politically or, worse, a Stalinist. At minimum, it is ineffective as a turn of phrase trying to capture opposition to my country's practices abroad, i.e., U.S. imperialism.?
?
Paul Z.?
?
--On 12/11/2008 12:16 AM +0000 paul bullock wrote:?
?
> It seems to me that the task of communists/ socialists/ democrats in the?
> imperialist states is to expose and fight against the activities of their?
> own state, and businesses in continuing to exploit the nominally?
> independent state, not give airy opinion about, or unwanted advice to the?
> movements that are struggling against imperialism.?
>?
?
?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~?
(Vol.23) THE HIDDEN HISTORY OF 9-11 Seven Stories Press soft, 2nd ed. 2008?
(Vol.24) TRANSITIONS IN LATIN AMERICA ~~~Research in Political Economy~~~?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/PZarembka?
?
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Received on Sun Dec 14 14:02:03 2008