Re: [OPE] Venezuela is the most democratic country inLatinAmerica[MESSAGE NOT SCANNED]

P. Bullock: **I do not consider the removal of the limit to two periods of office for President, congressperson, regional governors etc  a decisive step back. IF it is then why  habve you not, why are you not actively denouncing the present situtauion for all governors, congress members, vice preseident etc of the USA, the Brit PM, the Frech President etc etc ?? Surely your  demnads, if democratic, cannot be restricted to a decisive opponent of US imperialism?**   Because there are other institutions, listed among the items that I provided, that are working well in USA and not in Venezuela. Again, democracy must be judged from a complex net of institutions which provides several guarantees for different positives and negatives liberties.   Concerning Europe, we are talking there of Parliamentary Regimes. Limits to terms of executive office occupancy is crucial in Presidential Regimes, because the president tend to concentrate too much power, and this has increased indeed in Venezuela before the removal of the limits to terms of executive office occupancy.   Again Bullock & Co., you can not deal with these complexities from a plain militant point of view. Try to adopt and informed and critical position and save your anti-imperialistic rhetoric for the barricades.  A. Agafonow ________________________________ De: paul bullock <paulbullock@ebms-ltd.co.uk> Para: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <ope@lists.csuchico.edu> Enviado: domingo, 1 de marzo, 2009 16:36:48 Asunto: Re: [OPE] Venezuela is the most democratic country inLatinAmerica[MESSAGE NOT SCANNED]  I do not consider the removal of the limit to two periods of office for President, congressperson, regional governors etc  a decisive step back. IF it is then why  habve you not, why are you not actively denouncing the present situtauion for all governors, congress members, vice preseident etc of the USA, the Brit PM, the Frech President etc etc ?? Surely your  demnads, if democratic, cannot be restricted to a decisive opponent of US imperialism? ----- Original Message ----- From: Alejandro Agafonow To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:59 AM Subject: Re: [OPE] Venezuela is the most democratic country inLatinAmerica[MESSAGE NOT SCANNED] P. Bullock, the achievements of Chavez are undeniable. The important thing is that together with some positive departures from the corrupted situation of late 1990’s Venezuela , Chavez has also taken decisively steps back that no socialist should tolerate seeking the protection of allegedly strategic considerations. This attitude has supported the most regrettable abuses during 20th Century on the part of the communist left. And, as if that weren't enough, those steps back jeopardize the achievements in Venezuela so far.   Regards,A. Agafonow ________________________________ De: paul bullock <paulbullock@ebms-ltd.co.uk> Para: Outline on Political Economy mailing list <ope@lists.csuchico.edu> Enviado: sábado, 28 de febrero, 2009 1:52:00 Asunto: Re: [OPE] Venezuela is the most democratic country in LatinAmerica[MESSAGE NOT SCANNED]  David,   you said : "In a general case, it is quite obvious that what citizens decide in a democratic manner can have anti-democratic consequences. For instance, the NSDAP was elected into power." Now certainly  the vote rose for Hitler 30%  to 37% , but getting into power was another story as I indicated. I think it very careless to talk of Hitler being voted in... it was a political fix at the top, with the help of the big banks.   IF the point was that many may vote for reactionary candidates, that is true. The German middle classes, unemployed labour aristocracy and small farmers made up a large constituency for the NSDAP. This is typical of imperialist states. Who voted for Nixon, the Bushes, Reagan, Thatcher, Le Pen..etc ?  There is no need to use inappropriate and misleading examples.    What I find surprising in these exchanges related to Venezuela is that  if matters had stayed the same as before Chavez's election in 1998 for 99, it is doubtful if the country would be being discussed here in this way. Why should that be? What is it in the extraordinarily democratic Constitution, the defeat of privatisation plans for PDVSA, the defeat of a neo fascist coup,  or the building of a mass workers party and a vote for socialism by the mass of the people for the first time in Latin America History outside of Cuba, that has caused this anti-Chavez, fear of 'dictatorship' , analogies with Napolean etc???  The sudden appearance of 'democratic' sentiment directed against Chavez makes me thoroughly suspicious of the class interest that is actually being expressed. I hope you won't think me too blunt.     ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Zachariah To: Outline on Political Economy mailing list Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [OPE] Venezuela is the most democratic country in LatinAmerica[MESSAGE NOT SCANNED] 2009/2/26 paul bullock <paulbullock@ebms-ltd.co.uk> I suppose you accept the point I made about German elections and Hitler. No Paul, I don't and I think you missed my point completely. My point was against Jerry's implication that what citizens decide collectively cannot have anti-democratic consequences. Citizens of varying class compositions can opt for authoritarian institutions if they *perceive* that the institutions that are supposed to channel their is incapable of doing it. The framework of liberal parliamentarism in Europe had failed to deal with the crisis following WWI. Large masses of citizens perceived some form of authoritarian rule as superior. A large share of the German population opted for NSDAP, no amount of revisionism can change that. //Dave Z ________________________________ _______________________________________________ ope mailing list ope@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/ope ________________________________ _______________________________________________ ope mailing list ope@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/ope

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Received on Tue Mar 3 02:43:36 2009