Re: [OPE] The state under capitalism

The point though is that the two things are causally interconnected and it is not evident that the causal connection goes from commodity exchange to money taxes rather than vice versa.
The archeological evidence seems pretty clear that the areas of Gaul and of Germania on either side of the Roman frontier
saw a considerable economic development ater the establishment of frontier garrisons by the Roman state. The market
provided by the army for all sorts of agricultural produce stimulated the production of commodities and the development of
the division of labour, and was arguably a primary cause of the transition of German tribal society into a proto feudal form.
These commodities were paid for in money, and that money was recouped by the levying of money taxes.
That works in areas with good river based transport links, but in the absence of that, peasant producers can not
ship their crops to markets and obtain the money to pay monetary taxes. The absence of efficient land transport is a factor
operating at the level of the technical development of society that limits the total mobilie surplus product and the
inability to obtain this in money form is just an expression of that. If say in central Capadocia it is possible to raise
 a tax in kind but not in money, that tax is only available for local administration because of the same high transport costs
that impede the local farmers from transporting their crops to harbours on the coast.
________________________________________
From: howard engelskirchen [he31@verizon.net]
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 9:55 PM
To: Paul Cockshott; Outline on Political Econom y mailing list
Subject: Re: [OPE] The state under capitalism

Hi Paul,

The problem is not well posed. On the one hand you refer to lack of money,
and seem to mean the availability of metal coins. On the other hand you
refer to an "inadequate transport system." Marx's point is that a
circulation of money sufficient to allow for the collection of rent or taxes
in money requires an adequate development of commodity production in
general, of which the amplitude of transport would certainly be one factor.

howard

<Money taxes preceed capitalism. Lack of money is not a problem, the mint
can readily provide it once coins have been invented.>

* * *

> Was the problem there lack of money or an inadequate transport system to
> marketise the full agricultural surplus?
> My guess would be the later.

howard engelskirchen
he31@verizon.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Cockshott" <wpc@dcs.gla.ac.uk>
To: "howard engelskirchen" <he31@verizon.net>; "Outline on Political Econom
y mailing list" <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: [OPE] The state under capitalism

> Was the problem there lack of money or an inadequate transport system to
> marketise the full agricultural surplus?
> My guess would be the later.
>
> --- original message ---
> From: "howard engelskirchen" <he31@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [OPE] The state under capitalism
> Date: 14th August 2010
> Time: 3:05:38 pm
>
>
> Hello Dave and Paul,
>
> Both of you challenge my reference to Marx's example "that the Roman
> Empire
> twice failed in its attempt to levy all contributions in money" (I.3.3.b
> [means of payment]). See also III.47.4 (money rent). I'm missing
> something. The determination of possbility by structure is nicely
> developed
> in both places.
>
> howard
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Zachariah" <davez@kth.se>
> To: "Outline on Political Economy mailing list" <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 6:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [OPE] The state under capitalism
>
>
>> On 2010-08-14 06:27, howard engelskirchen wrote:
>>> Just because different social systems
>>> both have a kind of bureaucracy doesn't mean they can be tracked to the
>>> same
>>> structural root. And the same would be true, as you emphasize, for
>>> taxes.
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>>>
>>> Marx's point about collecting taxes in money is relevant. Where there
>>> isn't enough money in circulation, you can try, but it won't work. When
>>> it becomes possible its not because of an evolution of tax or coercive
>>> structures in place.
>>>
>>
>> I think this notion of 'not enough money' could be quite misleading. The
>> state cannot run out of money, only its capacity to extract taxes with
>> the capitalist sector intact.
>>
>> //Dave Z
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Received on Sun Aug 15 11:06:04 2010