Re: [OPE] The state under capitalism

Thanks, Paul, for the history. Of course the relationship is dialectical.

howard

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Cockshott" <wpc@dcs.gla.ac.uk>
To: "howard engelskirchen" <he31@verizon.net>; "Outline on Political Econom
y mailing list" <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 11:04 AM
Subject: RE: [OPE] The state under capitalism

> The point though is that the two things are causally interconnected and it
> is not evident that the causal connection goes from commodity exchange to
> money taxes rather than vice versa.
> The archeological evidence seems pretty clear that the areas of Gaul and
> of Germania on either side of the Roman frontier
> saw a considerable economic development ater the establishment of frontier
> garrisons by the Roman state. The market
> provided by the army for all sorts of agricultural produce stimulated the
> production of commodities and the development of
> the division of labour, and was arguably a primary cause of the transition
> of German tribal society into a proto feudal form.
> These commodities were paid for in money, and that money was recouped by
> the levying of money taxes.
> That works in areas with good river based transport links, but in the
> absence of that, peasant producers can not
> ship their crops to markets and obtain the money to pay monetary taxes.
> The absence of efficient land transport is a factor
> operating at the level of the technical development of society that limits
> the total mobilie surplus product and the
> inability to obtain this in money form is just an expression of that. If
> say in central Capadocia it is possible to raise
> a tax in kind but not in money, that tax is only available for local
> administration because of the same high transport costs
> that impede the local farmers from transporting their crops to harbours on
> the coast.
> ________________________________________
> From: howard engelskirchen [he31@verizon.net]
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 9:55 PM
> To: Paul Cockshott; Outline on Political Econom y mailing list
> Subject: Re: [OPE] The state under capitalism
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> The problem is not well posed. On the one hand you refer to lack of
> money,
> and seem to mean the availability of metal coins. On the other hand you
> refer to an "inadequate transport system." Marx's point is that a
> circulation of money sufficient to allow for the collection of rent or
> taxes
> in money requires an adequate development of commodity production in
> general, of which the amplitude of transport would certainly be one
> factor.
>
> howard
>
>
> <Money taxes preceed capitalism. Lack of money is not a problem, the mint
> can readily provide it once coins have been invented.>
>
> * * *
>
>> Was the problem there lack of money or an inadequate transport system to
>> marketise the full agricultural surplus?
>> My guess would be the later.
>
>
> howard engelskirchen
> he31@verizon.net
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Cockshott" <wpc@dcs.gla.ac.uk>
> To: "howard engelskirchen" <he31@verizon.net>; "Outline on Political
> Econom
> y mailing list" <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 11:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [OPE] The state under capitalism
>
>
>> Was the problem there lack of money or an inadequate transport system to
>> marketise the full agricultural surplus?
>> My guess would be the later.
>>
>> --- original message ---
>> From: "howard engelskirchen" <he31@verizon.net>
>> Subject: Re: [OPE] The state under capitalism
>> Date: 14th August 2010
>> Time: 3:05:38 pm
>>
>>
>> Hello Dave and Paul,
>>
>> Both of you challenge my reference to Marx's example "that the Roman
>> Empire
>> twice failed in its attempt to levy all contributions in money" (I.3.3.b
>> [means of payment]). See also III.47.4 (money rent). I'm missing
>> something. The determination of possbility by structure is nicely
>> developed
>> in both places.
>>
>> howard
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dave Zachariah" <davez@kth.se>
>> To: "Outline on Political Economy mailing list" <ope@lists.csuchico.edu>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 6:08 AM
>> Subject: Re: [OPE] The state under capitalism
>>
>>
>>> On 2010-08-14 06:27, howard engelskirchen wrote:
>>>> Just because different social systems
>>>> both have a kind of bureaucracy doesn't mean they can be tracked to the
>>>> same
>>>> structural root. And the same would be true, as you emphasize, for
>>>> taxes.
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marx's point about collecting taxes in money is relevant. Where there
>>>> isn't enough money in circulation, you can try, but it won't work.
>>>> When
>>>> it becomes possible its not because of an evolution of tax or coercive
>>>> structures in place.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think this notion of 'not enough money' could be quite misleading. The
>>> state cannot run out of money, only its capacity to extract taxes with
>>> the capitalist sector intact.
>>>
>>> //Dave Z
>>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
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Received on Tue Aug 17 22:04:35 2010