From: Nicola Taylor (19518173@STUDENT.MURDOCH.EDU.AU)
Date: Thu May 22 2003 - 22:19:32 EDT
Paul, have you read Koestler's book? It is relevant to the debate not as a 'metaphore' but because the book develops a coherent (and brilliantly argued) moral position on the old revolutionary question of ends and means. It is with Koestler's moral position ON THIS QUESTION that Riccardo, Simon and I explicitly agree. I suggest to you that the 'study of the facts' in the case of Cuba's recent actions (summary trial and execution, justified by reference to external threat) is not separable from this moral debate. So, any 'serious exchange' must at least acknowledge (not necessarily agree with) our concerns. Nicky > Riccardo > > I didn't reply to your concern that in asking Nicky why she prefered to > refer to Koestler's fictional writing rather than fact of his acts, I was > likely to be censoring the thoughts of writers because of their deeds. This > was NOT the point of my question. The point was to underline the need to > study facts and not draw a metaphor from a fiction for use in a very serious > exchange. > > > Paul Bullock > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul Bullock" <paulbullock@ebms-ltd.co.uk> > To: "OPE-L" <OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU> > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 8:08 PM > Subject: Re: (OPE-L) dreams and nightmares > > > > Jerry: > > > > Concerning such 'political' discussions. Firstly ALL the theory discussed > on > > this site has political implications as far as I am concerned. Secondly, I > > am quite astonished that given the appalling crimes committed by the rich > > and powerful to maintain their positions in the world, and the extremely > > aggressive and violent positions being carried forward against the > > democratic rights of millions by these same interest, that the recent > > limited reapplication of the death penalty in Cuba has seized the main > > attention of some members of the list. What sense of proportion do we see > > in these remarks? If Nicky wishes to appeal to our better instincts why > > doesn't she choose to condemn the fact of Koestler's rape of Mrs Foot, > > rather than his fiction? Why have the protests against the death penalty > not > > been seen before on this site by the same correspondents, when applied > > against the oppressed in the USA? > > > > If a discussion of imperialist violence and counteractions by oppressed > > countries has to be discussed, it must be done in public. This was the > > classic way to identify the real political positions of priests and > other > > ideologists who concealed self interest and reaction in moral lamentation > > and 'heavenly' appeals. It is not suprising that Castro is quoted on this > > site recently as attacking certain Marxists. > > > > Paul Bullock > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Riccardo Bellofiore" <riccardo.bellofiore@UNIBG.IT> > > To: <OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU> > > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2003 1:33 PM > > Subject: Re: (OPE-L) dreams and nightmares > > > > > > > I think Chris is right on openness. May I ask Jerry if it is possible > > > to open for these kind of discussions a parallel closed site? > > > > > > r > > > > > > At 13:02 +0100 17-05-2003, Christopher Arthur wrote: > > > >And I say I agree with Riccardo. (And also Fred) > > > >But this illustrates also why I was, and remain, opposed to a public > > > >archive. I would like to hear a discussion and particpate but I do not > > want > > > >to word things as carefully as I would in a letter to the press. > > > >Chris A > > > > > > > >>At 11:22 -0600 16-05-2003, Hans Ehrbar wrote: > > > >>>In the times of imperialist attack on Cuba I consider it the > > > >>>duty of every progressive either to support Cuba or, if you > > > >>>feel you cannot do this, to stay silent, because everything > > > >>>critical you say at this moment will be used as further > > > >>>pretext for the attacks on Cuba. The actions by the Cubans > > > >>>which you object to were undertaken as a defense against US > > > >>>attacks. We have to try to stop the imperialists, instead > > > >>>of second-guessing the actions Cuba is undertaking to defend > > > >>>itself. This seems so obvious to me that I am embarrassed > > > >>>to send it to this list. I am only saying it for the record > > > >>>so that people perusing the archives will not get a false > > > >>>impression. > > > >>> > > > >>>Hans. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>hans, four (no, five) things: > > > >> > > > >>(i) we decided to 'open' the list, so we decided to make debates > > > >>openly. if we don't want that, we should close the list. or Jerry > > > >>should open some parallel, closed site to discuss openly among > > > >>comrades this kind of stuff. > > > >> > > > >>(ii) 'to stay silent'? I don't know why, but I have heard this kind > > > >>of things many many times. I don't like the expression: neither the > > > >>form nor the substance. > > > >> > > > >>(iii) I strongly support Cuba against US attacks. I repeat: strongly. > > > >>And I condemn any 'pretext' to attack Cuba. But I do not justify the > > > >>actions undertaken by Cuba, as you do. By the way, they are giving > > > >>USA more 'pretexts'. There is a dissent among us on this. You cannot > > > >>take your opinion as granted. I respect it, but mine is very > > > >>different. > > > >> > > > >>(iv) in my mind (and unfortunately I can think only with my mind, and > > > >>speak accordingly) what I said in prior mail is exactly the most > > > >>friendly approach to Cuba, it' s the only way I see to support Cuba: > > > >>avoid (or insist in) serious and dramatic errors. there is no > > > >>second-guessing. those actions are patently wrong, are against what > > > >>communism (at least, libertarian communism) is and should be, as end > > > >>and as means. > > > >> > > > >>(v) should I say that those who do not understand this are really > > > >>working against Cuba, and should then stay silent? it's not my > > > >>attitude, frankly. I am interested in listening their opinions and > > > >>arguments. > > > >> > > > >>r > > > >> > > > > > > > >17 Bristol Road, Brighton, BN2 1AP, England > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Riccardo Bellofiore > > > Dipartimento di Scienze Economiche > > > "Hyman P. Minsky" > > > Via dei Caniana 2 > > > I-24127 Bergamo, Italy > > > e-mail: riccardo.bellofiore@unibg.it > > > direct +39-035-2052545 > > > secretary +39-035 2052501 > > > fax: +39 035 2052549 > > > homepage: http://www.unibg.it/dse/homebellofiore.htm > > > > > > Al signor K chiesero cosa stesse facendo. > > > Il signor K rispose: "Sto lavorando duro > > > per preparare il mio prossimo errore" > > > > > > What are you working on, Herr K was asked. > > > Herr K replied: "I am working hard, > > > I am carefully preparing my next error" > > > > > > Bertolt Brecht > > > > >
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