From: Andrew Brown (A.Brown@LUBS.LEEDS.AC.UK)
Date: Mon Mar 14 2005 - 07:34:59 EST
Full reply as promised. The conclusion to your paper, with Paul C., stresses that the comparision between values before and after technical change is impossible, or better still, meaningless (analogous to comparison between language games for Wittgenstein). But this result is obvious, given the general case of technical change, where a new (basic) good is introduced and hence the respective price vectors, before and after technical change, are incommensurable. I simply do not see what is so significant about showing incommensurability under the relatively superfical special case where 'technical change' maintains qualitative identity of all goods in the economy, merely involving new input or output magnitudes. Why would Sraffa himself have bothered with such a relatively trivial matter -- as part of his lifes work -- when the general case is obvious and renders the intricacies of the trivial case, indeed trivial (assuming, for sake of argument, your interpretation of Sraffa)? Sorry if the above is repeteting my earlier points -- and this is a sign that out conversation may be about to stall -- but some annotated comments below. -----Original Message----- From: OPE-L on behalf of ajit sinha Sent: Fri 11/03/2005 13:07 To: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU Cc: Subject: Re: [OPE-L] standard commodity --- Andrew Brown <A.Brown@LUBS.LEEDS.AC.UK> wrote: > Thanks Ajit, > > I don't think economics can get very far without a > theory of value, and in point of fact well known > existing economic theories do have a theory of > value, hence the burden of argument would seem to be > on you to show us how economics can proceed absent a > theory of value. And I hope we agree that economics > is useless if it tells us nothing about reality > where change through time is axiomatic. ____________________ I don't think the burden of argument can be on me. Let's suppose that I have convinced you that a theory of value cannot deal with changes in technology. Now if you think that without a theory of value one cannot do much in economics and economics must necessarily deal with changes in technology. Then you come to the conclusion that the project of economics as a scientific discipline must be abandoned. But then what's wrong with that? Why should there be a necessity that economics must be a scientific discipline? On the other hand I find that most of the schools of economic thinking except neoclassical economics and to some extent Marxian economics go about their business without caring about having a theory of value, which includes Keynes. Now to what extent their stories are coherent and how far they can go without a theory of value is something that needs to be looked into closely but there is no denying that they are able to say a lot of things economic in a reasonable way. I think what we need to put on the agenda is: why a theory of value is important to economics? __________________________ Well, the history of economic thought would seem to suggest that value theory is central to economics. (We go from LTV through confused eclectics like JS Mill to marginal revolution, after all). Keynes clearly owes debt to marginalism. You ask 'what is wrong' with the hypothetical case of all economics being useless? Answer: it is helpful to push the logic of an argument to show it leads to such a conclusion, especially when one has on offer an alternative point of view that suggests economics need not be useless. Turning to your point that 'on the other hand' some economics seems to say sensible things then I certainly deny that *useful* things can be said about the essence of capitalism absent a value theory -- where an economic theory is useful for long-run and system-wide issues concerning capitalism, and appears to lack a value theory, then it unwittingly presupposes one, in my view. > > You write: > > The problem of > new machines etc. being produced is not a problem > within the context of a given system of basic goods. > All new goods including new kinds of machines are > non-basics for the given system of production. > Cheers, > ajit sinha > > > I reply: at best this remark seems to confirm the > point I was making. In the real world, 'technical > change' includes the introduction of a new machine > to the production process. Therefore (1) the correct > analysis (one which does not assume away the very > point at issue) of such technical change must be a > comparison between 2 different *basic* systems; ________________________ Yes, but why comparison between two systems must imply comparison of prices in the two systems. One may be able to compare various other things without taking price comparisons into account. ______________________ This leaves only a few ratios (e.g. proft rates; income shares) available for comparison through time (I won't call them dimensionless given Philip Dunn's recent post). These are the things to be explained by economics and social theory and they defy explanation absent some substance, homogenous through time and space, that can can plausibly be considered to be manifested by them (or by the terms that constitute them)-- this is the substance of value. Explanation of a quantity generally requires reference to somehing that is quantiatively and qualitatively related to the quantity in question. E.g. we explain weight of a sack of potatoes as a function of the the number of potatoes in the sack. (2) > the Okishio theorem tells us nothing about the > movement of the real world profit rate, in the face > of real word technical change; ______________ Let's leave Okishio theorem out because it is not relevant here. But in general, I do not think that there is such a thing like "real world". All real worlds are constructs of one kind or the other. ___________________ I hope my meaning is clear, absent philosophical discussion of 'what is the "real world"?' I mention the Okishio theorem because I am puzzled as to why this theory is deemed to have any implication for the rate of profit in the real capitalist economy, e.g. the implication that the profit rate can only fall if real wages rise. Do you (or any one else on this list who knows about such things) agree that the Okishio theorem tells only about a pretty superifical case where 'techinical change' involves only new combinations of given goods, rather than the introduction of a new good (say, a new machine)? (3) I remain puzzled > as to why you place so much stress on results that > you achive by entirely unrealistically holding the > set of (basic) goods qualitiatively identical -- the > fundamental limitation to economic science (and > value) that you wish to stress is surely given by > the point about real world technical change that I > am making? ____________________ The theory basically needs only one basic good to work itself out. I don't think it is unrealistic from any kind of real world perspective. Most of the raw materials and food grains etc. are not changing qualitatively from one production period to another. ______________________ I tried to answer this in my initial reply at the top of this page (4) For my own part I believe the LTV is > essential precisely because it provides a common > substance and hence unit of value through real world > technical change (the *magnitide* of this substance > in any commodity changes, but the substance and unit > itself does not, through technical change). _____________________ The problem with LTV is that one does not know what one means by it. Most of the people who are writing on LTV these days don't even know what theory stands for in LTV. For many of them LTV is like a circus animal, which does all kinds of tricks before your eyes. ______________________ For me it is simply the view that prices have a systematic relationship to labour times. It is not exactly proportional. It is not ergodic. It is inexact and occurs only through the anarchy of capitalistic production and exchange. But it exists and one can grasp capitalism on this basis, and no other. Many thanks, Andy > > Your further thoughts on the above would be very > much apperciated. Specifically if I have got > something wrong I'd be very grateful if you could > explain why and how. I will otherwise remain > confused! > > Many thanks, > > Andy ___________________ I have a feeling that I have made you even more confused. But talking to you is always a pleasure! Cheers, ajit sinha > > > --- Andrew Brown <A.Brown@LUBS.LEEDS.AC.UK> wrote: > > Thanks to Paul and Ajit, > > > > Have always been intrigued by Ajit's > interpretation > > of Sraffa (I speak > > as an interested layman on Sraffa). Paul, I did > not > > think you subscribed > > to Ajit's interpretation. I thought you held a > > labour theory of value. I > > thought that Ajit, by contrast, takes Sraffa to > show > > us that no theory > > of value, in any accepted sense, is possible (time > > -- technical change > > -- takes us from one 'system' to another, > analogous > > to moving from one > > 'language game' to another, hence rather disabling > > economic science). > > But the conclusion to this paper talks about a > > fundamental limitation on > > economic science as such, in line with Ajit's > view, > > thus I am puzzled > > that you (Paul) should subscribe to it. No doubt I > > have misinterpreted > > both of you - so apologies in advance for that... > > > > To my inexperienced mind, a more fundamental point > > than the one you make > > in this paper is that 'technical change', in the > > real world, involves > > change in the goods produced (e.g. a new machine). > > Given such a change, > > then you can't compare prices before and after > > change (as you do in the > > paper, by keeping the economy's goods > qualitatively > > identical) can you? > > Albeit this doesn't provide the immanent angle on > > general equilibrium > > theory, but perhaps it makes Ajit's point more > > forcefully, when it comes > > to practical (real world) considerations? Or, more > > likely, I have got > > something wrong somewhere. > > > > On a related aside, perhaps you can help me with > the > > following. The > > Okishio theorem tells us that viable technical > > changes cannot lower the > > rate of profit. But how can this tell us about > 'real > > world' technical > > change, where, say, a new good is introduced? As > far > > as I can see it can > > tell us nothing about such a case, but no doubt I > > have got all this > > horribly wrong (people as far apart as Steedman > and > > Fine seem to me to > > have stated that 'empirically' the rate of profit > > can only fall if real > > wages rise). > > > > Many thanks, > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: OPE-L [mailto:OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU] On > > Behalf Of Paul Cockshott > > Sent: 08 March 2005 12:08 > > To: OPE-L@SUS.CSUCHICO.EDU > > Subject: [OPE-L] standard commodity > > > > Ajit and I have written a paper on the > significance > > of the Standard > > commodity which, with Gerry's permission I am > > posting to the list. > > > > It is at: > > > > > > http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~wpc/reports/Sraffa%20Standard%20Commodity.htm > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! 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